40K RPG Rule Changes Discussion

[Cynical Cat]

So with the release of Black Crusade and the rule changes within, I have decided to start this thread to discuss the merits of these changes and whether or not they should be ported to other games, such as my Rogue Trader game.

I'll start with a few that are on the tip of my brain.

Supression Fire: Can be done with Auto or Semi-auto fire.

Psy Focus: They now provide a straight +10 bonus to a Focus Power test. Since Force Rods and Force Staves are supposed to boost combat power use in the background material (and in other 40K game systems) and really don't under the current rule, this gets a thumbs up.


Standard Attack +10 to hit, melee or range
Swift Attack/Semi-Auto +0 to hit, every 2 additional degrees of success generates another hit
Full Auto/Lightning Attack -10 to hit, every additional degree of success is another hit

All are half actions

Unbalanced and Unwieldy weapons can't be used to make Lightning Attack.

[Cynical Cat]

Power Armour standard power packs (as opposed to the military grade ones) are good for 24 hours.

[Hotfoot]

I'm fine with all of the above, including the usage of two-weapon fighting as something aside from a full action.

As far as the new Parry Skill, I think it should be either added as an additional purchase that is unlocked alongside dodge increases.

Step Aside I'm thinking should be in place of both the current Step Aside and Steel Wall, removing the second option if it exists on the list (freeing up points to purchase +parry if you so choose).

Redefining of certain ship-borne skills is questionable, but workable, but I'd want the people it would affect to have some input. Basically it moves Ship Weaponry firing to INT along with Ship Piloting.

[White Haven]

While the INT change to ship gunnery and piloting makes more sense than the current BS/Ag setup, that would make building a Void Master who could be worth a damn outside of the bridge much, much harder, and would most definitely necessitate reworking the VM stat advancement table in a big way. It'd change Gunnery Void Masters from 'runs the ship's guns and is also a damned good shot on the ground' to 'runs the ship's guns and is also Yet Another Knowledge Battery Class,' only without the perks of having all the Mechanicus toys open to him.

That, or it just results in having a lot of mediocre-ass gunners running around as they try to do both at once.

[General Havoc]

Presently, I'm the ship's gunner, and my Int is actually slightly higher than my BS. However, I'd be concerned about the very issue you spoke of above for the other characters who have vital ship roles to perform.

[Cynical Cat]

There won't be changes to what ship's piloting and gunnery will work off for this campaign. Marcao, for instance, has built his character to be an awesome pilot and changing what stat his primary ability works off of mid campaign is unfair.

[Cynical Cat]

While the INT change to ship gunnery and piloting makes more sense than the current BS/Ag setup, that would make building a Void Master who could be worth a damn outside of the bridge much, much harder, and would most definitely necessitate reworking the VM stat advancement table in a big way. It'd change Gunnery Void Masters from 'runs the ship's guns and is also a damned good shot on the ground' to 'runs the ship's guns and is also Yet Another Knowledge Battery Class,' only without the perks of having all the Mechanicus toys open to him.

That, or it just results in having a lot of mediocre-ass gunners running around as they try to do both at once.

Unfortunately, you managed to totally miss how bad this is. In the other direction.

1) The only real issue build wise is that Int is currently not a favored attribute.

2) Voidmaster already has lots of Int skills.

3) This makes one attribute run all the Voidmaster's (assuming you didn't go the Starbuck route) class abilities. Buying one good attribute doesn't seriously detract from what you can invest in the rest, especially when its already one useful to the character. Going from Int 35 to 40 is a mere 5 attribute points during building.

4) The end result is horrifically broken. Sure Ballistic Skill 60 and Mastery of Gunnery is badass, but compared to Int 50, Operate (Voidship) +20, Talented (Operate Voidship) and Mastery of Gunnery it is weak. And that's not even seriously trying to break things. Best Quality Cyberbrains and MIUs anyone? And he gets to use the same skill to pilot. Wheeee!

[Marcao]

Being the Void Master in charge of piloting the ship, I have a vested interest in keeping the pilot (space craft) skill being agility since that was one of the central skills I built my character around. I am grateful, that the change to operate (voidship) will not occur in this particular game. However, realistically speaking it is a change that is probably for the better. Having every "operate/pilot" skill being agility really valuates that particular attribute. I think that for future games, it probably is a better fit to have the capital ship piloting skill being intelligence based. This is especially so given the length of rounds in space combat. I do hope that the void master upgrade track gets tweaked a bit (intelligence is one of the worst upgrades for void masters starting out at 500xp iirc).

[Cynical Cat]

Being the Void Master in charge of piloting the ship, I have a vested interest in keeping the pilot (space craft) skill being agility since that was one of the central skills I built my character around. I am grateful, that the change to operate (voidship) will not occur in this particular game. However, realistically speaking it is a change that is probably for the better. Having every "operate/pilot" skill being agility really valuates that particular attribute. I think that for future games, it probably is a better fit to have the capital ship piloting skill being intelligence based. This is especially so given the length of rounds in space combat. I do hope that the void master upgrade track gets tweaked a bit (intelligence is one of the worst upgrades for void masters starting out at 500xp iirc).

It should be. Also starship gunnery will have to be tweaked because . . . well, you read what I wrote.

[White Haven]

Fortunately, VMs have a spare 100-track upgrade bouncing around doing not-a-lot, Willpower. Easy enough to do a swap there. Of course if starship gunnery is going to go from being a BS test to a skill, that opens up the hilarious broken-ness that is the plus-to-skill system to ship gunnery, which is so far from being good that it can see the curvature of the universe.

When it's not terribly hard to pump a stat up into the 70-80 range, all of a sudden a +20 is a bit silly to add on top of that. Among other things, it has the very real chance to render Master of Gunnery an obsolete trait. Good thing gunnery is reliant on degrees of success more than just hits.

[Cynical Cat]

Unnatural Attributes: Instead of being a multiplier that reduces the difficulty of tasks by one degree and grants additional degrees of success, it is rated by the amount it increases the attribute bonus by and it increases degrees of success by half its point rating.

Holofields: Defensive bonus is now being treated as a rating 35 Forcefield.

Flipbelts: Defense bonus is being able to reroll dodge.

Mighty Shot: Damage bonus is equal to Ballistic Skill Bonus.

Mighty Blow: Damage bonus is equal to Weapon Skill Bonus.

[frigidmagi]

Mighty Blow: Damage bonus is equal to Weapon Skill Bonus.

This... Is the best rule change ever!

[White Haven]

Good lord. Yes, give high-end characters an instant additional +2-5 damage boost for taking a talent they'd already want to take anyway. Mighty shot/blow have now gone from automatic picks to 'dear god, you did what?'

Curious choices, given that most of the rest of the changes have been to mitigate some of the more egregiously powerful stacking (Holofields plus force fields, for example).

[Cynical Cat]

Curious choices, given that most of the rest of the changes have been to mitigate some of the more egregiously powerful stacking (Holofields plus force fields, for example).

Yeah, I'm not sure I'm going to port that over. This is a discussion thread for the Black Crusade rule changes, not a list of ones that will be done to the Rogue Trader game.

[Hotfoot]

Okay, I don't think it was mentioned yet, so I'll bring it up. If it's been mentioned, fuck it, I'll bring it up again. Critical hits in combat currently can do a fuckton of damage, which is fun, and don't get me wrong, I love my exploding dice, but I think the new system is overall better, since it makes you suffer in combat before your wounds drop into single digits, at least potentially, allowing you to fight on through nasty pain, but still be able to take a beating. The way it is currently written in Black Crusade is that when you score a crit for damage (a natural 10), and you do damage after armor and toughness, then you roll 1d5 and apply critical damage to the target, with no additional modifiers or consequences so long as the target still has wounds. If you do not do damage through toughness or armor, you do one point of damage that cannot be soaked (note the utility for some effects that require damage be done, but not having high damage or penetration).

I'll also bring up the parry/dodge thing again, just because. I know it's extra kicking with the system, and Cyncat I remember you telling me we'll see how it goes, I'm just putting it up again as a reminder as I'm thinking of things.

Beyond that, I of course also move that beta stats from Only War things be provisionally inserted for no reason whatsoever. ;)