The morality of neoBSG

[Josh]

This thread is a continuation of the previous debate on the recent episode of neoBSG, regarding Sharon's near-rape and rescue.

Discuss.

[Stofsk]

The whole thing over in Down Below started because Destructionator said that Tyrol and Helo deserved a medal for coming to Sharon #2's aid, in which she was in danger of being raped.

Using that logic, if Callie were to be shot or killed in a scuffle the people who did it ought to get a medal because Callie murdered Sharon #1. But most people are all like "Oh when's Callie getting out of the brig? She's t3h cute" and so on. To Destructionator's credit he conceded that he did not mean this literally, but that he approved of Tyrol's and Helo's actions, and here's the thing boys and girls: so do I.

You're right the killing was accidental, so it wouldn't be murder; I was out of line with that, and I actually like Tyrol and Helo. And they did what they felt was right, but not what if they had stopped to think, was right. On the point that killing to prevent a crime I concede since it's true or acceptable.

I have no problem with Tyrol and Helo rushing to Sharon #2's aid and stopping Lt Rapist from doing his thing with her. I said that they should have called for backup while they were rushing to her aid. And having rechecked the episode, they DIDN'T know that Sharon #2 was being raped, they only rushed to the brig because of a suspicion. Having Marines to watch your back is a good thing as it turns out, but apparently pointing this out makes one a voyeur who would rather 'watch a rape than do something about it' to paraphrase Comrade Tortoise.

Leaving aside the fact that I NEVER said Tyrol and Helo should have stood by and 'watched' it happen, as it happens having marines from Galactica to watch your back and stopping Lt Thorn from having his way with Sharon #2 would have lead to a different situation than the end of the episode turns out.

The other part of the controversy lies in when I wrote:

And so what if Sharon gets raped? It's not like she was shot by someone, who subsequently went free after a bit of time in the brig. Where's the moral outrage over that?

See when Callie shot Sharon #1 nobody said "Death to Callie!" But when Sharon #2 is in danger of being raped everyone is saying "He deserved what he got!"

There's a discontinuity here over moral outrage; apparently it is shameful to conduct rape to POWs but murdering those POWs is A-OK in the Colonial Fleet. I apparently deserved to get flamed and blasted and accused of being a mysogyinst of all things because I pointed this out, even though I was deliberately being sarcastic. I was also accused of hypocrisy, among other things, but why exactly? Have I said that Lt Rapist shouldn't have been stopped, that Sharon #2 should have been raped? I challenge anyone to find me and quote me saying those words.

[frigidmagi]

Alright. I'm not going to give excuses here. I fucked up and overreacted to your post Stosk and for that I apoligze for my words in Down Below.

I'm sorry.

[Stofsk]

In future I would appreciate it if we instead went to PMs or private forums than bickered publicly. Ask for clarification instead of leaping to conclusions.

In any case your apology is accepted.

[Stofsk]

So to return back to the morality of the fleet.

Callie shot Sharon #1. Lt Thorn assaulted and then attempted to rape Sharon #2. On the surface, Callie is the bigger criminal because she murdered Sharon #1.

But there are different crimes, methods, different criminals, and different victims in both cases.

First of all, the crimes: murder vs assault/rape. By any standard murder is worse because the victim is taken from this world forever. You can't 'recover' from murder, and this ISN'T trivialising assault and rape (assault as in physical assault, because that is traumatising just as rape is). It is simply stating the obvious. It's why you can get life in prison for murdering someone but only a few years for assault or a few years more for sexual assault. So on the surface what Callie did was worse than what Thorn did. Also because she discharged a firearm into a crowd, which endangered not only the victim but also those around her (fellow shipmates).

However, Callie acted out of passion. Thorn didn't, he was cold and clinical and ruthless. Which is worse? Callie murdered Sharon #1, but is the fact that she was emotionally fraught a good excuse? Is the fact that Lt Thorn a cold hearted bastard make what he did worse than someone who was, say, from Caprica and was just beating up Sharon because he couldn't get the image of his 12 year old younger sister out of his mind, who surely died in the attack?

What of the victims? Sharon #1 is guilty herself of attempted murder. Sharon #2 on the other hand is with-child, is only guilty of being a Cylon, and she has helped save the fleet as well as be enormously cooperative to Adama and co. Does that mean that Sharon #1 deserved to be killed, while Sharon #2 didn't (obviously)? Well why is Sharon #2 in the brig at all, since she's done nothing but cooperate and help the fleet yet she's incarcerated.

Does the fact that Callie is needed on the hangar deck as a tech matter? After all Lt Thorn was trying to find out what the big Cylon ship was all about. Does it matter what they do for a living? Should Callie NOT be in the brig for years because the Fleet is in need of qualified mechanics? If so, why isn't she allowed to work on-duty but then put in the brig when off-duty?

This is a complex moral issue. It goes beyond saying "Lt Thorn deserved what he got" irrespective of whether or not he should have been killed. After all if Thorn deserved to be killed in order to prevent him from raping Sharon #2, shouldn't Callie deserve to stay in the brig for a longer time than 30 days for doing a worse crime? Or did what she did is informed under the above qualifications somehow make it better?

[Narsil]

...

Stofsk, you are a twat, aren't you.

Put simply, I think you should suck cocks in hell you fucking egotistical, mysogynist twat. How dare you even THINK of saying that murder, is in any way, worse than rape. Death is the end, no suffering after that is there, while after a rape, you're alive, and psychologically screwed up for the rest of your fucking life.

Go suck cocks in hell when you die, you fucking bastard!

If you ever think anyone with a soul is actually going to forgive you, think a-fucking-gain!

[Ra]

You're twisted in the head, stoffie. And you're more than a little lucky you got away with your sickening behavior so easily. No punishment whatsoever. Perhaps it's just because you're one of the good old boys around here. Whatever. The thing is, you have no fucking idea about rape at all. I know people have already voice pretty much every valid argument about this attrocity, and I may be blowing hot air, but I as a person can't just sit here and let you act like it's no big deal. Because it is. You frighten me. You really frighten me.
- The Fashion Fucktard

[Stofsk]

...

Stofsk, you are a twat, aren't you.

No, but it appears that you are.

Put simply, I think you should suck cocks in hell you fucking egotistical, mysogynist twat. How dare you even THINK of saying that murder, is in any way, worse than rape.

Because the victim cannot recover from it.

A murder victim is dead, gone. A rape victim can receive support, counselling, a degree of justice if their attackers are caught and imprisoned. They can get on with their lives, however painful it may be, and however depressed and traumatised they end up as a result, but their lives are still capable of going on, of continuing. A murder victim's life... is gone. Snuffed out.

Oh a kudos for saying that only women can be raped, you fucking tool. I know for a fact and through my own experience that this isn't so, but I don't expect a stupid shithead like yourself from actually knowing anything for a fact or having any experiences.

Death is the end, no suffering after that is there, while after a rape, you're alive, and psychologically screwed up for the rest of your fucking life.

So I should be grateful that my father was murdered, because his suffering is over? He was working and getting over a years-long battle with depression until an axe murderer came and ended his life prematurely. According to you that's not as bad as someone being attacked and raped.

And according to you, I am somehow a 'mysogynistic twat' for saying that what happened to my father was the worse crime.

Go suck cocks in hell when you die, you fucking bastard!

Why would I suck cocks in hell? What is that, some kind of insult? Are you a homophobe as well as an ignorant shit heel, Dakarne?

If you ever think anyone with a soul is actually going to forgive you, think a-fucking-gain!

Forgive me? What did I do that was wrong, arsehole?

So it is 'trivialising' rape for me to say "Murder is worse"? Note that saying "murder is worse" doesn't say "rape is ok", which is what it appears the braindead dipshits like you Dak, seem to think. Rape is horrendous, but murder is worse. Rape can traumatise the victim, but murder will end that victim's life. A rape victim can receive counselling and support for years if not longer for what happened to them, but a murder victim has no avenue for support, for counselling, for anything actually, because they're FUCKING DEAD.

My mother was raped when she was a teenager, while my father was murdered quite recently. As far as I know my mother has recovered since her stepfather attacked her, but how will my father recover? Hmm? Answer me that you useless little fuck, how is my father going to recover from having an axe partially sever his head from the rest of his body? Hmm?

He's not. My mother is still alive, and she's suffered, oh fuck has she suffered, but she IS STILL ALIVE. My father is not. So fuck you, Dakarne. Fuck you for thinking that I trivialise rape because I think murder is worse.

[Stofsk]

You're twisted in the head, stoffie. And you're more than a little lucky you got away with your sickening behavior so easily. No punishment whatsoever.

What sickening behaviour you stupid cunt?

Perhaps it's just because you're one of the good old boys around here. Whatever.

Did you just accuse the administration of being corrupt?

The thing is, you have no fucking idea about rape at all.

Incorrect.

My mother was raped when she was a teenager. My brother was raped by someone in the family, details are not forthcoming. My last girlfriend was raped by her ex-boyfriend.

And my father was murdered. So I know a lot about rape and murder, thank you very much. I can say that "Hey, you know, at least my mother and brother are STILL ALIVE."

But oh no! That's trivialising rape! WRONG, fuckheads. It's saying "At least they're still alive" because I know that if they were dead the world would be poorer as a result.

I know people have already voice pretty much every valid argument about this attrocity, and I may be blowing hot air, but I as a person can't just sit here and let you act like it's no big deal.

That's funny because the only people I can see who are acting like this isn't a big deal are you and Dak. Y'know, the whole "Well let's just jump in and me-too the guy who said rape isn't a big deal... wait, he didn't actually say that, but who cares no-one will notice."

I have NEVER said rape is NOT a big deal, you stupid cunts.

Because it is. You frighten me. You really frighten me.
- The Fashion Fucktard

Ok I scare you; guess what, you piss me off. Both you and Dakarne can fuck off like the trolls that you are.

[Robert Walper]

Well, this is my interpretation of both sides of the equation:

Side 1: There are worse fates than death. However, how rape measures on this scale is, frankly, a matter of personal opinion. To some, rape may be considered trivial compared to dying. To others, rape is a fate worse than death. No one can dictate to others which is the worse fate...it's a personal interpretation. I personally think it's rather a case by case scenario, although murder I'd generally consider a more severe crime and outcome.

For example, say getting shot in the head and dying instantly seems a better fate than being repeatedly raped and abused for an extended period of time, coming out of the ordeal mentally broken and scarred, unable to interact with people because of fear and mental instability. Effectively, the person survives, but their outlook on life is so unstable and damaged their life is almost a waste from that point on. This depends entirely on the strength of will of the person and their ability to cope of course.

Side 2: Rape is a horrible experience, but in alot of cases, it can be recovered from and the victim can go on to live a long, happy and productive life. From that perspective, rape is indeed not as severe as being killed. For example, alot of people would probably chose a five minute rape session that they recover from fairly well as opposed to being brutally murdered in an excruciating manner.

Basdically, it comes down to personal opinion and interpretations on the matter. There's no "one rule fits all" idea in my opinion.

[Robert Walper]

Moderator reminder:

Keep the conversation more civil people, as per Comrade Toroise's forum rules. Any further ridiculasly unprovoked flaming and thinly veiled jabs at the administration will not be tolerated.

[Stofsk]

Obviously I am on Rob's "Side #2" argument. Yes, rape is horrible, but to me murder is worse. To justify this view I've referenced my own personal experiences with the people that I love who have suffered rape in the past, but also the fact that my father was murdered particularly brutally. I can't for the life of me see how this trivialises rape, since I know that it's horrible. But I didn't expect to catch a lot of flak from people who ought to have known better.

[Narsil]

Okay Civil Mode:

I think that in the situation described, a guy is murdered after he rapes someone, makes it excusable...

Personally, I'd hail someone as a Hero for killing a rapist in the act. Something like rape revokes any and all privileges and rights anyone has as a person because they've already established themselves as a soulless and evil bastard I'm afraid. They DESERVE to die for such a crime, or in the very least be locked up for a very, very long time with a bunch of Prisoner-Rapists.

[Stofsk]

It's not ok for you to call me a egotistical, mysogynistic twat, Dakarne. It's also not ok for you to wish me to 'suck cocks in hell when I die'. I'm holding both over your head.

Are you gonna put your money where your mouth is?

[Comrade Tortoise]

Stofsk, I overreacted and made an eel of myself. For that, I apologize. You dint deserve the venom, and I should have been more reasonable

As it stands, I am staying out of this discussion for moderation purposes. Speaking of moderation purposes...

Dakarne, Ra. Any further outbreaks of incivility in my forum will result in a split and/or lock. If you wish to flame Stofsk ther is a thread for that purpose down below, where such things belong. But not here. Stofsk, that goes for you as well.

[frigidmagi]

Gentlemen, both acts are extremly distructive, I honestly think "grading" them to be a rather pointless and wasteful act.

However it should be noted that Stosk has a point in that some victums recover from one and I know of no one who has recovered from being murdered. Therapy does not help one get over a case of death.

The flip side is we know of situations where murder is excusable and justified and in some cases even celebrated. For example I stalk a man I have never met for 30 days and finally kill him without warning. If I do this in NYC on my own I am a murderer and wanted by the law. If I do this has a Sniper in a warzone against an enemy officer I am considred by many to be a hero. (No there's no deep message here, let it go).

However there are no cases of excusable, justifiable rape. None.

I believe that is at least some of the reasoning going on here.

[Bratty]

Why this was put in Science and Arcadia.

Not even sure what happened in the in game experience.

As a woman of passion and a survivor of rape and molestation, as 3/4ths of women are (although, yes, it does happen to men, and that should never be forgotten), I do feel compelled to give my two cents on the matter.

Rape is a crime of power. Not of passion. It is a way for the person committing the crime to gain power over the victim. Adultery is a crime of passion, as it is a way to gain comfort and sexuality.

Reaction to rape is passionate, because it is a violation. The sexual aspect of it is incredibly miniscule in the retrospect because consensual sex is a natural process. In many times, this violation is not only one of the body, but one of trust or the mind as well. Most rapes occur with someone the victim knows.

In any criminal justice system, a crime of passion has a different weight then a crime that is thought out beforehand.

However, whether someone is killed by a crime of passion, or killed by cold calculation, it is still death.

75% of women have learned to live with rape or molestation. That does not even count for the amount of women that have learned to live with abuse. A victim of both, I will say it is devestating and incredibly hard, but also makes you stronger within in retrospect if you survive it. Scarred for life? Who the hell isnt nowadays? I would go out on a limb and say most people are scarred permanently in one fashion or another.

Not advocating rape, nor unsensitive to the devestating effects of the aftermath. lord knows, I have councilled enough friends. Just indicating that when one takes the emotion out of the equation and looks at all the factors, it is incredibly clear cut. At least within the justice system. And from a practical aspect. After all, most people want to live. Even if they have been raped.

Whether you agree with my thoughts or not, I am incredibly disheartened by the lack of maturity at others' viewpoints within this forum thread. Calling people names because they refuse to understand the emotional aspect, from your perspective, is uncalled for. You have no idea what the person on the other line has gone through.

I know I am new to this forum, but I must say, I would like to be able to read intelligent discussions and debates without the personal drama of mud slinging.

bitte? ~brat grins~

[Stofsk]

I'm sorry to hear about your experiences Bratty.

For my part, I am sorry I participated in the flames. It's not a standard I wish to set, but I don't like being flamed and I tend to react like for like; flame me I flame you.

I should have known better as this forum has a higher standard than DB.

[Narsil]

I apologize for all flames directed at Stofsk, I was acting out of emotion, and God knows that hasn't gotten us anywhere good before... so I apologize for the flames.

[Bratty]

I'm sorry to hear about your experiences Bratty.

For my part, I am sorry I participated in the flames. It's not a standard I wish to set, but I don't like being flamed and I tend to react like for like; flame me I flame you.

I should have known better as this forum has a higher standard than DB.

It happens. I didn't post for sympathy, as I have well moved past certain chapters in my life.

I did post because I saw a bunch of people who may not know the entirity of it, and I felt I had something to contribute.

Also, I thought it was important to drive home the fact that you never know what the experiences are of the others reading your posts.

I appreciate your reaction, darlin'. It is natural to push back when pushed. But as you get a mite older, it becomes clear that one should choose their battles. (Not a word from you Josh :P) And an internet forum is not a battle I would choose frankly :P

[Ra]

I wrongly accused the board administration of "sheltering" Stofsk. I did this out of frustration and anger, and it was wrong of me. I let my emotions get in the way of my train of thought, and it caused me to say something offensive and wrong. For that, I am truly sorry.

But I understand the crime. I submit myself to whatever punishment the administration feels is appropriate.
- Ra

[Bratty]

I apologize for all flames directed at Stofsk, I was acting out of emotion, and God knows that hasn't gotten us anywhere good before... so I apologize for the flames.

Sparkles, dearheart :)

[Dark Silver]

Ra and Dakarne will receive punishment for Violations of the following Board Policy:

Ia. Thou shalt not engage in strictly personal attacks.
Sometimes idiocy is just grating idiocy and should be denounced as, well, idiocy. However, all flames should be given in the form of comments upon the subject at hand, and not simple personal attacks. There will be no vendettas or stalking another member from thread to thread simply to attack them. Vulturing a poster is also expressly forbidden. As a rule of thumb, if five posters are engaged with another single poster, stand back and let it be. Violations of section Ia are particularly grave offenses, and will be treated with extra care and attention by the staff.

Also, Ra has accussed the Administration of corruption, a violation of Commandment VII. But I cannot enforce this to much extent, as Commandment VII does not specifically state you cannot accuse the Administration of corruption without proof. This will be admended, and Ra will not receive punishment for this infracture.

Punishment will be listed in a new thread created under the Announcements Forum, this thread will be known "Administrative Action".

This thread will continue, further infracture of board and Forum rules will result in it's locking by the Administration.

[Uraniun235]

Stofsk, you're forgetting that Sharon's consciousness would have been transferred; therefore, it's not a permanent sort of death.

Cally acted not out of a vague sense of punishing the Cylons for the destruction of the Colonies, but out of revenge for Adama's shooting. It was probably a crime of passion. What I'm getting at is that it was more direct; Cally was responding to something that Sharon did (albeit could not remember). Cally wasn't looking to inflict and maximize Sharon's pain; she wanted her dead. But more importantly, if Sharon had not shot Adama, Cally would probably not have murdered Sharon.

Thorn, on the other hand, was not acting irrationally. He was not responding to any particular act that Sharon (#2) committed. He did not want her dead. He was intending to torture Sharon as part of an interrogation. Torture is generally seen as a greater crime than murder, because pain is prolonged and enhanced for the purposes of the torturer. From the conversation in the repair bay with the Pegasus crew members, Tyrol and Agathon had good reason to believe that Sharon would be repeatedly abused under the pretense of interrogation, but that either way the Pegasus crew sees Cylon rape as an acceptable means of entertainment. Furthermore, it's pretty clear that Thorn takes enjoyment from his work; he is a sadist. His intent was not to kill but to inflict pain and suffering. He probably would have done so even if Sharon #2 could have proven that she had actively opposed the destruction of the Colonies.

Basically, Thorn's intentions were more immoral.

EDIT: Oh, shit, I didn't realize the last post was in September. My apologies.

[Stofsk]

Don't worry about it. Most forms of 'Threadomancy = t3h bad' arise from me-too posts. Yours is actually substantial.