Why is suicide wrong?

Kreshna Aryaguna Nurzaman · Fri Oct 14, 2005 12:25 am

Well, from the religious point of view, it is clear that suicide is wrong, because "our live certainly doesn't belong to ourselves and actually belongs to God."

But how about secular point of view? Is there any secular, atheistic, and non-religious reasons why suicide is wrong? Do you think suicide is wrong, or it is nothing more than basic human rights? Doesn't our live belong to ourselves?

Stofsk · Post by **Stofsk** » Fri Oct 14, 2005 1:35 am

Of course suicide is wrong. More dead people equals less taxpayers. Those that commit suicide rarely leave behind people who won't mourn their passing, and so preventing someone from taking their own life helps more than just the one person. Those that commit suicide are sick and in need of help, they're not thinking properly or 'exercising their free choice for blahblahblah', which is why we should help them. (the same way if you need surgery you go to a hospital, if you're feeling bad you go to a doctor, etc)

Also, obviously the person committing suicide won't give a damn but they leave behind a body which has to be taken care of - ambulances, other services. That means taking away resources from people who might want to live but are still need medical attention.

What if the person committing suicide jumps off a building? What if he hits someone on the way down? Now you have two people in the morgue... What if he steps out in front of a bus or train? Clean up is a bitch, dozens of people are inconvenienced and more than likely traumatised (no, it's not good to see a dead body). And why? Because someone decided to end their lives messily.

Other methods are more discrete of course. Maybe they'll injest a box of pills and go to sleep... only what if they change their minds?

Basically, those that think they want suicide are not operating on a fully rational mind; I said before that they're actually sick (depressed, mentally ill), and in need of help. So what should we as a society do, let them do whatever they want? I would like to think that we would help those that suffer silently if we can, rather than callously disregard their plight and let them take their own lives to oblivion.

Euthanasia is something else. Euthanasia is when you're terminally ill and in constant pain. In those circumstances, suicide is relieving the sufferer of pain that can't be salved.

zac naloen · Post by **zac naloen** » Fri Oct 14, 2005 3:27 am

Many would consider suicide to be selfish, sure you'll never have to put up with any crap anymore. but you just made things shit loads harder for those who love you, and depending on how you do it those caught in the collateral

Kreshna Aryaguna Nurzaman · Fri Oct 14, 2005 4:03 am

Well, just a little bit tangent; but why there are people who support abortion (pro-choice), but not suicide? I guess it's because people consider suicide is worse than abortion. But then again, why? I mean, at least in suicide, it is her/his own decision, and it is her/his own life.

Well, I have to admit that people mourn if being left by their loved one, including myself. Also, suicide tend to be perceived as a bad thing even through non-religious point of view. But I just wonder: throughout the development of human civilization, why did we never learn to honor people's decision to end their own life? For instance, IIRC only the Samurai culture actually respect suicide.

Stofsk · Post by **Stofsk** » Fri Oct 14, 2005 5:01 am

Pro-choice is not the same as pro-abortion. You can support a woman's right to choose while at the same time recognising it's a shitty thing to do to oneself. Abortion and suicide is a false comparison, as is comparing abortion to murder.

Oh, and the samurai had a contempt for death. This is reflected in the ritual suicide they performed rather than be taken captive. Of course, not every samurai did that - I mean who the fuck would?

The Morrigan · Post by **The Morrigan** » Fri Oct 14, 2005 5:28 am

I don't think that suicide is wrong in itself. It's your life, you can do what you damn well please with it. However I think that it is a terrible waste and a horrible thing to do to the people left behind. It should also be discouraged because a person who is suicidal is often not in a position to make a rational decision.

As for it being selfish, while it does look that way from the outside, from the point of view of the person who commits suicide, it can be the case that their self-esteem is so rock-bottom that they think they are doing the world a favour.

Stofsk · Post by **Stofsk** » Fri Oct 14, 2005 5:39 am

The Morrigan wrote:I don't think that suicide is wrong in itself. It's your life, you can do what you damn well please with it.

To what end? We already recognise that personal liberty must be curtailed if your choices threaten the lives of others with harm. We also curtail liberty when your choice can harm yourself.

Sure, liberty for all sounds great, but not every choice is beneficial. And with something like suicide, where the person has ended their life but all those that care for them - their lives are affected and saddened by the loss.

As for it being selfish, while it does look that way from the outside, from the point of view of the person who commits suicide, it can be the case that their self-esteem is so rock-bottom that they think they are doing the world a favour.

I wouldn't call it selfish. Anyone who thinks that they would be doing the world a favour by ending their lives is crying for help but feels they're unheard.

The Morrigan · Post by **The Morrigan** » Fri Oct 14, 2005 6:26 am

Stofsk wrote:
The Morrigan wrote:I don't think that suicide is wrong in itself. It's your life, you can do what you damn well please with it.
To what end? We already recognise that personal liberty must be curtailed if your choices threaten the lives of others with harm. We also curtail liberty when your choice can harm yourself.

Sure, liberty for all sounds great, but not every choice is beneficial. And with something like suicide, where the person has ended their life but all those that care for them - their lives are affected and saddened by the loss.

I'm not saying that suicide is beneficial to society or should be encouraged. I meant that the choice to end one's own life is not of itself immoral (for example in the "Your life belongs to God" sense or anything like that). A person's life ultimately belongs to that person, not to God or to anybody else. If this were the case, it would make voluntary euthenasia (Which I consider to be a form of suicide in any case. It is not the act that changes, but the reason) equally immoral. It is the implications of that choice that create problems.

A person who wants to commit suicide may be so irrational that they may need to be protected from themselves.

Also, my view of 'liberty' includes the right to make bad decisions. The point is that it's your own decision, not one that is made for you. The impact of your choice on others should be a factor in making a decision, but it is not always the be all and end all of the matter. Sometimes you have to make the choice that it right for you. It ultimately comes down to a balancing act between your rights, the rights of others.

And a person does not need a reason or an 'end' to exercise their personal liberty. If it doesn't cause any significant harm to others, I say go for your life.

The trouble with suicide is that it usually does cause significant harm to others and rarely has anything but negative consequences for all involved and the person making that choice is unlikely to be in a position to make an informed, rational decsion about the matter.

Lindar · Post by **Lindar** » Fri Oct 14, 2005 8:13 am

Suicide is wrong, but the reason has nothing to do with religion (note: please specify the reason)

it has more to do with other people. But i think someone's already voiced that.

hypocritical in some ways if you think about it to. no matter what happens there are some lines folk shouldn't cross. Suicides one of them. But people do..and sometimes...maybe they believe it's right. Sometimes there's so much happening and they have no way of getting through the bombardment of information they're getting. it seems like the only choice.

suicide doesn't let you learn. it ends the process completely.

Mrs Kendall · Post by **Mrs Kendall** » Fri Oct 14, 2005 9:08 am

I agree that it is your right to take your own life but it's an extremely selfish act because you're hurting more people than your saving.

Also as far as I know most people who take their lives are not healthy mentally and that is no time to take your life. You will regret it.

Edit: Sorry guys, I just read through the thread and realised that I basically said the same thing as most of you

Comrade Tortoise · Post by **Comrade Tortoise** » Fri Oct 14, 2005 9:13 am

As someone who has known MANY suicide vitims, I can state uniquivicably that suicide is wrong. And it is indpendant of religion.

For one, suicide is not something a normal person chooes. Suicide is commited by people who suffer from serious mental problems, and if helped through those problems, every last one of them regrets the suicide attempt, or would later, never consider hurting themselves. They arent right in the head, and thus are not thinking clearly.

Secondly, cuicide hurts more than just the person who shoots themselves in the face. Their family, their friends. All of them just lost someone and the pain of loss from a suicide is a horrible thing to go through. i know it from personal experience, seeing as my moms fiance' shot himself in the face with a shotgun a few years ago. It fucked my mom up bad (she saw the end resulot IIRC... Larry brain splattered all over his living room)

So unless someone is suffering from a terminal illness and wants to die on their own terms, suicide is wrong.

Also, this is an ethical question, and this thread is being moved.

Ace Pace · Post by **Ace Pace** » Fri Oct 14, 2005 9:19 am

Being a devils advocate... What is the person is litteraly alone? You know the drill, parents dead, living alone, etc. What if the person is disconnected from society?

So far most objections are either that the person is not right in the head, but to be honest, its still his choice.

The other objection is far more relevent, connection, and its the only thing stopping people I know, but if we take it out...?

Josh · Post by **Josh** » Fri Oct 14, 2005 9:43 am

I would agree with most here that suicide is wrong, for the reasons specified. One has an obligation to the people close to them.

However, I will also say that ultimately, a person does own their own life. It does extend beyond euthanasia. We do not own each other, nor does a society own its citizens.

Robert Walper · Post by **Robert Walper** » Fri Oct 14, 2005 9:50 am

I wouldn't call suicide wrong. Often it is done for misguided or irrational reasoning, but it by definition isn't wrong. I suspect the anti-suicide mentality is similiar to the knee jerk reaction of "killing is wrong".

I'd interpret on a case by case scenario, although I'd admit a great deal of the cases would probably be for misguided or irrational reasons.

Ra · Post by Ra » Fri Oct 14, 2005 11:55 am

I don't think suicide is unequivically wrong, and in some people's cases, they may feel like it's the only choice they have left. Though I think Walper got it right with going on a case-by-case basis; in some cases it's wrong, and in some cases not.
- Ra

Comrade Tortoise · Post by **Comrade Tortoise** » Fri Oct 14, 2005 12:14 pm

If they feel it is their only choice, there IS something wrong with them. unless they are dying of a terminal illness.

What they feel is, honestly, irrelevant, ebcause in a metal state conducive to suicide, they are not competant to make the choice. Much like a 10 year old is not competant to give sexual consent. They cannot think rationally and clearly enough to make the decision intelligently. There is a damn good reason why it is possible to have mentally ill people declared incompetant to manage their own affairs.

Narsil · Post by **Narsil** » Fri Oct 14, 2005 1:11 pm

I do not think suicide is wrong...

It's their choice, not yours.

Robert Walper · Post by **Robert Walper** » Fri Oct 14, 2005 1:27 pm

Comrade Tortoise wrote:If they feel it is their only choice, there IS something wrong with them. unless they are dying of a terminal illness.

What they feel is, honestly, irrelevant, ebcause in a metal state conducive to suicide, they are not competant to make the choice.

I have to disagree there CT. The willingness to commit suicide is not grounds for determining a person mentally incompetent. Their justitification for suicide would be a better means of determining that.

Much like a 10 year old is not competant to give sexual consent.

Bad analogy, as ten year olds are not adults and relative to most adults very inexperienced and immature.

They cannot think rationally and clearly enough to make the decision intelligently. There is a damn good reason why it is possible to have mentally ill people declared incompetant to manage their own affairs.

However, asserting only mentally incompetent or irrational people would consider suicide is incorrect. I've admitted that in alot of cases, suicidal inclinations are most likely due to irrational thinking or misguided notions, but that's not grounds for asserting a person incompetent simply because they pursue suicide.

frigidmagi · Post by **frigidmagi** » Fri Oct 14, 2005 2:10 pm

Indepenent of the morality of the act, I would have to point here that suicide ultimatily solves nothing for anyone. Allow me to examine this from several points if you will

Christian: Suicide is a sin, you go to hell. Well that certainly didn't improve your situation did it?

Islam: Unless you blew yourself up next to a bunch of eval infedials (I highly doubt anyone here wants to argue for the right of people to do such realistic impressions of landmines) You commited a sin, see Christianity.

Atheist: You cease to exist. You no longer feel pain this is true, but you have removed all chance of ever improving your situatuion or even having a situation.

Hindu: You get reborn. You pretty much just got recycled with no guantnee this won't come up again, damn that wasn't bright. Hell you might be reborn a cow in Texas, whole new set of bigger problems there!

Buddhist: You get reborn. See Hinduism.

There are many, many, many points of view and traditions I have haven't covered, I haven't got all day I'm afraid. However based on the admitly few I have covered I see nothing to be gained by ending your own life for no purpose at all. Pain is part of life, it is the through our abiltiy to cope and defeat it that we grow and mature has human beings, we always have a chance no matter how remote of improving both ourselves and our situations to reject that is to reject being human in and of itself. My experience in life has lead me to view the rejection of humanity has a very monsterous act to preform, but that is a seperate issue.

But now I would like to touch on the samaurai because his beliefs have been highly smeared over time. For the samaurai death was not to be feared if he was in the correct moral state but neither was it something to be rushed towards. They enjoied being alive had much has the next guy. However there were times where their society placed them in positions where it would be impossible to maintain correct morality (I speak of from the samaurai's view here). In such a position death was preferable to some. If a Lord ordered an evil act, if they were forced into a position of betraying the clan to live, if their lives would be harmful to the nation and people are examples of the situation that cause many samaurai to die by their own hand rather than do what they saw has an immoral act. Their Code did not allow for rebellion against correct authority (not that this stopped many, but *shrug*) A samaurai who slew himself was in effect making a statement about his morality and a protest against the people and life that placed him in such a position, not ending his life out of despair or lack of hope. More than one samaurai would kill himself in order to shame his lord into behaving in the correct fashion for example. Or slew himself to protect family members and friends. For me and granted my morality is perhaps a bit strange has well this doesn't really mesh with the idea of suicide, which is killing overself in depression and despair has far has I understand it.

Forgive the tagent please.

Pcm979 · Post by **Pcm979** » Fri Oct 14, 2005 2:23 pm

Could I just pop in and say that you've got me officially worried, KAN. First the thread about loving someone who wrecks your life and now this... Well, I might be barking up the wrong tree, but it does paint a disturbing picture.

There I go with the metaphor-mixing again...

Ace Pace · Post by **Ace Pace** » Fri Oct 14, 2005 2:32 pm

To be honest, I don't see, for a self, what exactly do you lose by ceasing to exist? If there is no afterlife...So you cease to exist, Finito, no one says an Atheist belives in improving himself. For me, Suicide means The End. The Last peice. To a person, there is nothing wrong for that.

And Tortoise, even if the person isn't qualified to make the decision, its a slipperly slope...so we have to watch over every decision every mentally ill person makes?

Kreshna Aryaguna Nurzaman · Fri Oct 14, 2005 2:39 pm

Pcm979 wrote:Could I just pop in and say that you've got me officially worried, KAN. First the thread about loving someone who wrecks your life and now this... Well, I might be barking up the wrong tree, but it does paint a disturbing picture.

There I go with the metaphor-mixing again...

Thanks

, although actually the primary reason I posted this thread is because I wondered; why people dare to speak for abortion (the pro-choice), but not for suicide (Although later Chris has said that comparing abortion and suicide is a false comparison).

Also, suicide has been condemned by various religions for centuries (although I guess it's mostly Judeo-Christo-Moslem. How about Roman/Greek religions?). I wondered what is the atheistic stance on this matter. See, it may be a little bit tangent, but what is the Pagan stance on suicide? Take homosexuality for example; it is something bashed by JDM theology, but before that, it was generally accepted by the Greeks. How about suicide, then? Anyone knows more about ancient religions?

And don't worry, if I really wanna' commit suicide, I would make sure it will be as artistic as possible, de-throning even goatse.cx, prollapsing ewe, and tubgirl. It will be guaranteed to make people screaming 'Wrong wrong wrong!' while gouging their eyes out. And of course there will be a downloadable, high-res, 7.1 Dolby Digital (TM), AVI format. MWA-HAHAHA!!!

(Nah, just kidding

)

EDIT: I just noticed Ace's post, so....

Ace Pace wrote:To be honest, I don't see, for a self, what exactly do you lose by ceasing to exist? If there is no afterlife...So you cease to exist, Finito, no one says an Atheist belives in improving himself. For me, Suicide means The End. The Last peice. To a person, there is nothing wrong for that.

See, from atheistic point of view, death is basically the end. So is there anything inherently wrong with that? Also, is there anything inherently wrong to decide our own end?

Granted that we may hurt people that love us by committing suicide, but isn't it because our culture has been used to view death as a bad thing for millenia? If we know what the person we love decides to end her/his own life because it's better for the said person (for instance, probably the person has been sufferring from some really painful illness, like the wife of the former German Premier Helmut Kohl, IIRC), can't we 'train' our culture to respect and honor the decision?

Note: technically, my example is not suicide... It is euthanastia, but what's actually the substantial difference between the two?

Another case is the habit of WWI pilots to carry handgun during flight, before parachute was invented. The purpose of the gun is to shoot themselves on the head in case the plane is shot down and burned, because burned alive IS painful. Would you consider the suicide is wrong?

Robert Walper · Post by **Robert Walper** » Fri Oct 14, 2005 2:41 pm

frigidmagi wrote: Atheist: You cease to exist. You no longer feel pain this is true, but you have removed all chance of ever improving your situatuion or even having a situation.

And for someone who's determined their life too troublesome or not worth the time and effort to try and improve, I don't see a problem with suicide. We can do our best to try and convince a person otherwise, try and provide them with alternate options, but if they are adament, there should be very little we can do about it. Everyone's life is their own, and nor is it anyone's right to dictate the value of another person's life.

Lindar · Post by **Lindar** » Fri Oct 14, 2005 2:48 pm

Robert Walper wrote:
frigidmagi wrote: Atheist: You cease to exist. You no longer feel pain this is true, but you have removed all chance of ever improving your situatuion or even having a situation.
And for someone who's determined their life too troublesome or not worth the time and effort to try and improve, I don't see a problem with suicide. We can do our best to try and convince a person otherwise, try and provide them with alternate options, but if they are adament, there should be very little we can do about it. Everyone's life is their own, and nor is it anyone's right to dictate the value of another person's life.

HELLO! If they're telling someone about it, then they have some sort of hesitations.*shakes head* where there's a hesitation, there's a way.

Robert Walper · Post by **Robert Walper** » Fri Oct 14, 2005 2:52 pm

Lindar wrote:
Robert Walper wrote:
frigidmagi wrote: Atheist: You cease to exist. You no longer feel pain this is true, but you have removed all chance of ever improving your situatuion or even having a situation.
And for someone who's determined their life too troublesome or not worth the time and effort to try and improve, I don't see a problem with suicide. We can do our best to try and convince a person otherwise, try and provide them with alternate options, but if they are adament, there should be very little we can do about it. Everyone's life is their own, and nor is it anyone's right to dictate the value of another person's life.
HELLO! If they're telling someone about it, then they have some sort of hesitations.*shakes head* where there's a hesitation, there's a way.

Telling someone about it doesn't mean they have hesistations about it...could be something as simple as letting others know what you're planning to do. I routinely tell people I'm heading out or going to do something, but that doesn't mean I have hesistations or want to be talked out of it.

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