Why is suicide wrong?

[Ace Pace]

Agreed with Walper here, I can talk about alot of things with people, dosn't mean what I'm doing is telling them "help me, I don't wanna do this!"

I'd leave a note: Bye, have fun.
Does that mean I hesitated and didn't really want to do it?

[Josh]

Telling someone about it doesn't mean they have hesistations about it...could be something as simple as letting others know what you're planning to do. I routinely tell people I'm heading out or going to do something, but that doesn't mean I have hesistations or want to be talked out of it.

I almost started to say that, Robert, but honestly in practice it's hardly ever true. Admittedly it's anecdotal, but I've dealt with suicidal people before, and I have yet to see one who announces it in some form or fashion who isn't hesitating, essentially.

A person who is truly that rational about it will generally realize that everyone around them is going to hassle them about it, and probably make other arrangements.

[frigidmagi]

To be honest, I don't see, for a self, what exactly do you lose by ceasing to exist?

You lose everything. You lose yourself which is frankly all you can ever really have, you lose all chance at effecting the world on any level, you lose all you have learned and struggled for. When everything that is you is gone, you cannot say you have lost nothing, wheter or not you feel it or care, or know it is irrevenlent to the fact that you have lost it.

[Robert Walper]

To be honest, I don't see, for a self, what exactly do you lose by ceasing to exist?

You lose everything. You lose yourself which is frankly all you can ever really have, you lose all chance at effecting the world on any level, you lose all you have learned and struggled for. When everything that is you is gone, you cannot say you have lost nothing, wheter or not you feel it or care, or know it is irrevenlent to the fact that you have lost it.

One could argue that the event is inevitable , thus dying sooner actually lessens the overall loss to both the individual and others.

[Robert Walper]

Telling someone about it doesn't mean they have hesistations about it...could be something as simple as letting others know what you're planning to do. I routinely tell people I'm heading out or going to do something, but that doesn't mean I have hesistations or want to be talked out of it.

I almost started to say that, Robert, but honestly in practice it's hardly ever true. Admittedly it's anecdotal, but I've dealt with suicidal people before, and I have yet to see one who announces it in some form or fashion who isn't hesitating, essentially.

A person who is truly that rational about it will generally realize that everyone around them is going to hassle them about it, and probably make other arrangements.

I certainly agree for the most part, although there are instances of individuals informing others that they intend suicide and are not doing so as a means of "reaching out".

[Caz]

There's one perspective that hasn't been covered here: the German grammatical perspective! Allow me to demonstrate:

The German word for suicide literally breaks down to 'self-murder.'

In Germany, despite their reluctance to outlaw things like riotous sex, fast cars, and alcohol, murder is still a crime.

Therefore suicide is wrong. :]

[frigidmagi]

One could argue that the event is inevitable , thus dying sooner actually lessens the overall loss to both the individual and others.

One should then get slapped on the head. Inevtability does not make an event more desirable. Nor does having it happen at a sooner time by preventable means make the lost any less.

[Robert Walper]

One could argue that the event is inevitable , thus dying sooner actually lessens the overall loss to both the individual and others.

One should then get slapped on the head. Inevtability does not make an event more desirable.

I did not say inevitability means 'desireable'.

Nor does having it happen at a sooner time by preventable means make the lost any less.

Actually, it does. Less people know the individual, less experience to be lost, less time lost, etc. It's just a matter of accumulated concepts lost, I'm not debating the morality of the loss.

[Comrade Tortoise]

To: Walper

No mentally fit person wants suicide. It is so much of an anathema to human instinctual drives that only a nutbag would seek it, unless they are dying from a terminal illness.

Seriously dude. Name a reason to commit suicide that is not based on mental issues, or some sort of kooky ideology.

[Robert Walper]

To: Walper

No mentally fit person wants suicide.

Define "mentally fit". And asserting your personal beliefs and feelings on subjects does not constitute establishing "mental fitness".

It is so much of an anathema to human instinctual drives that only a nutbag would seek it, unless they are dying from a terminal illness.

Seriously dude. Name a reason to commit suicide that is not based on mental issues, or some sort of kooky ideology.

Sacrificing one's self to save others.

And who are you to determine what ideology is "kooky"? Death is a part of life. Suicide is no more crazy than humans who suppress the urge to procreate, unless you assert those who practice this are also mentally unfit as it goes against human nature.

[The Silence and I]

To Comrade Tortoise:

You provided a reason yourself; a terminal condition allows someone to make a rational choice for suicide.

There are other cases too. Let us say you are miserable due to circumstances beyond your control--e.g. you have a chonic (but not terminal) disease which causes you persistent, lasting pain. This could be severe arthitis, recurring illness of the lungs, whatever, be creative. You also happen to be extremely poor, you have few skills for the work force and thanks to your position in society (let's say you are an untouchable in India) this will never change realistically.

You have: No money, no prospect of ever changing that, bad health, a life-long social marking. Odds are you won't live long no matter how hard you try, the unsanitary conditions + your health + malnurishment (no money) = one hard, short, painful life.

If such a theoretical person decided this travesty called 'life' was not worth having, I would not claim any moral high ground when he decides to end the pain and suffering and vain struggling.

If someone has no realistic hope of improving an unbearable situation, are they mentally infirm to weigh the odds and decide death is the sweeter thing? I say not. I also say it should take extreme conditions to make suicide rational, but those conditions can and do exist.

[Robert Walper]

A good example there Silence.

As I've already admitted, alot of suicides reasoning is misguided or irrational. But it is easily possible for a rational, normal human being to find themselves in circumstances where suicide is a weighable option.

[Comrade Tortoise]

Define "mentally fit". And asserting your personal beliefs and feelings on subjects does not constitute establishing "mental fitness".

Well, here is the definition of mental disporder straight from the textbook.

A Behavior of thought which is atypical, maladaptive, distressing/disabeling and finally unjustifiable.

Suicidal thoughts fit the entire category, provided it is NOT for purposes such as defense of others, or escaping from the slow wasting death of terminal illness. Because such things are justifiable, and most especially, sacrificing one's self for others is not atypical. As anyone in this forum would probably do it.

If we are talking about suicide, the above cases of altruistic defense, or euthenasia, really dont count. As they are not within the normal working definition of suicide.

[Comrade Tortoise]

If someone has no realistic hope of improving an unbearable situation, are they mentally infirm to weigh the odds and decide death is the sweeter thing? I say not. I also say it should take extreme conditions to make suicide rational, but those conditions can and do exist.

I can accept that I suppose. But those situations are few and far between. Very far between.

[Robert Walper]

Define "mentally fit". And asserting your personal beliefs and feelings on subjects does not constitute establishing "mental fitness".

Well, here is the definition of mental disporder straight from the textbook.

A Behavior of thought which is atypical, maladaptive, distressing/disabeling and finally unjustifiable.

Suicidal thoughts fit the entire category, provided it is NOT for purposes such as defense of others, or escaping from the slow wasting death of terminal illness. Because such things are justifiable, and most especially, sacrificing one's self for others is not atypical. As anyone in this forum would probably do it.

If we are talking about suicide, the above cases of altruistic defense, or euthenasia, really dont count. As they are not within the normal working definition of suicide.

Now you're nitpicking terminology or selectively employing it. Suicide as I'm defining it is the intentional killing of one's self. You asserted that "no mentally fit person would commit suicide". I countered that assertion.

[The Silence and I]

I suppose a good question for Comrade Tortoise before this goes too far: Do you consider euthenasia suicide?

As far as I can tell Robert Walper, and certainly I, have been operating from the position that willfully killing yourself over a very short time-span--in any and all situations--is suicide. Your definitions seem to be different, so this should be clear between all parties.

[frigidmagi]

Less people know the individual, less experience to be lost, less time lost, etc. It's just a matter of accumulated concepts lost, I'm not debating the morality of the loss.

To assume that fewer people will know you now than will know you later is pure and utter folly. For all you know 1/2 of the people you know will die tomorrow.

[Robert Walper]

Less people know the individual, less experience to be lost, less time lost, etc. It's just a matter of accumulated concepts lost, I'm not debating the morality of the loss.

To assume that fewer people will know you now than will know you later is pure and utter folly. For all you know 1/2 of the people you know will die tomorrow.

Irrelevent. From the perspective of accumulated experiences, material items and other similar natured concepts, dying sooner means less is lost respectively.

[The Silence and I]

A suitable argument I think, but it might be limited in its uses. Think of Blade Runner, if you have seen it that is. At the end (i.e. spoilers if you have not seen it)


...Roy laments the fact that he has seen so many wonderous things in his life and with his death all those moments will be lost. Now we as the audience don't have too much empathy for Roy during the film, given he is the bad guy, a ruthless killer, the works. He is fated to extremely short life, and that tugs at something, but one of the reasons his death at the end is as moving as it is the sense of loss. Regardless of what he is he has had singular experiences, and they will vanish entirely with him. --If he had never had those experiences there would be less of a loss with his death, it might not be moving anymore.

So certainly I think killing oneself rather than waiting for a more natural death limits the 'loss' attributed to the death. In most cases though, I would say that if your life sucks so much that suicide is a rational choice there won't be much you experience that you consider worth keeping; hence there isn't so much of a loss. In fact loosing truely horrifying experiences might be seen as a gain.

[Caz]

To: Walper

No mentally fit person wants suicide.

Define "mentally fit". And asserting your personal beliefs and feelings on subjects does not constitute establishing "mental fitness".

It is so much of an anathema to human instinctual drives that only a nutbag would seek it, unless they are dying from a terminal illness.

Seriously dude. Name a reason to commit suicide that is not based on mental issues, or some sort of kooky ideology.

Sacrificing one's self to save others.

And who are you to determine what ideology is "kooky"? Death is a part of life. Suicide is no more crazy than humans who suppress the urge to procreate, unless you assert those who practice this are also mentally unfit as it goes against human nature.

Throwing yourself on a grenade to keep the rest of the platoon from dyin'!

[Kreshna Aryaguna Nurzaman]

Seriously dude. Name a reason to commit suicide that is not based on mental issues, or some sort of kooky ideology.

How about avoiding great suffering? Before the wide application of parachute, WWI pilots carried a handgun to shoot themselves on the head, because they didn't want to burn with the plane in case of being shot down (and being burned IS painful, y'know!).

[Ace Pace]

Or killing yourself when you know you will die anyway soon, and not of old age?

[Surlethe]

Or killing yourself when you know you will die anyway soon, and not of old age?

But if you're going to die anyway, why speed it on?

[Ace Pace]

Lessen suffering?

[Surlethe]

Lessen suffering?

To lessen suffering may be ok, but what about the general case? Is it generally a good idea to kill yourself because you're going to die anyway?