Why is suicide wrong?

[Hedgecore]

How about avoiding great suffering? Before the wide application of parachute, WWI pilots carried a handgun to shoot themselves on the head, because they didn't want to burn with the plane in case of being shot down (and being burned IS painful, y'know!).

This seems more like euthanasia, than outright suicide. I guess the line between them is very fine.

[Robert Walper]

Lessen suffering?

To lessen suffering may be ok, but what about the general case? Is it generally a good idea to kill yourself because you're going to die anyway?

I don't see a problem with people having the ability to chose when and how they die. If it's a choice between wasting away in a hospital bed or ending my life a year "early" in dignity, I'd fight for the right to end my life with dignity.

[Surlethe]

Lessen suffering?

To lessen suffering may be ok, but what about the general case? Is it generally a good idea to kill yourself because you're going to die anyway?

I don't see a problem with people having the ability to chose when and how they die. If it's a choice between wasting away in a hospital bed or ending my life a year "early" in dignity, I'd fight for the right to end my life with dignity.

If you'd read my post, you'd've noticed it said

To lessen suffering may be ok...

In other words, you didn't answer the question I posed.

[Robert Walper]

To lessen suffering may be ok, but what about the general case? Is it generally a good idea to kill yourself because you're going to die anyway?

If you'd read my post, you'd've noticed it said

To lessen suffering may be ok...

In other words, you didn't answer the question I posed.

My answer would be it depends entirely on how and when someone is going to die in the first place.

[Surlethe]

To lessen suffering may be ok, but what about the general case? Is it generally a good idea to kill yourself because you're going to die anyway?

If you'd read my post, you'd've noticed it said

To lessen suffering may be ok...

In other words, you didn't answer the question I posed.

My answer would be it depends entirely on how and when someone is going to die in the first place.

Here's a hypothetical question: would you commit suicide if you knew you were going to quickly die in exactly a year in a car crash?

[Robert Walper]

To lessen suffering may be ok, but what about the general case? Is it generally a good idea to kill yourself because you're going to die anyway?

If you'd read my post, you'd've noticed it said In other words, you didn't answer the question I posed.

My answer would be it depends entirely on how and when someone is going to die in the first place.

Here's a hypothetical question: would you commit suicide if you knew you were going to quickly die in exactly a year in a car crash?

Actually, I'd avoid going in any cars in exactly a year.

But the direct answer to your question is "No".

[Surlethe]

Actually, I'd avoid going in any cars in exactly a year.

But the direct answer to your question is "No".

See? That's my point: to avoid suffering, suicide is understandable; otherwise, it's merely a waste of life.

[Robert Walper]

Actually, I'd avoid going in any cars in exactly a year.

But the direct answer to your question is "No".

See? That's my point: to avoid suffering, suicide is understandable; otherwise, it's merely a waste of life.

Where have I disputed this?

[Surlethe]

Actually, I'd avoid going in any cars in exactly a year.

But the direct answer to your question is "No".

See? That's my point: to avoid suffering, suicide is understandable; otherwise, it's merely a waste of life.

Where have I disputed this?

You haven't; I'm just reinforcing my point.

EDIT: Smilie to clarify lack of hostility toward unmerciful supermod...

[Robert Walper]

Where have I disputed this?

You haven't; I'm just reinforcing my point.

Well, your point doesn't change the fact that ultimately it should be a person's choice whether or not to live their life.

EDIT: Smilie to clarify lack of hostility toward unmerciful supermod...

*cracks knuckles* A wise peon...most refreshing.

[Surlethe]

Where have I disputed this?

You haven't; I'm just reinforcing my point.

Well, your point doesn't change the fact that ultimately it should be a person's choice whether or not to live their life.

If you'll recall, my point was in reply to Ace's postulated reason -- beyond a mental illness or kooky idealogy -- to commit suicide.

[Robert Walper]

You haven't; I'm just reinforcing my point.

Well, your point doesn't change the fact that ultimately it should be a person's choice whether or not to live their life.

If you'll recall, my point was in reply to Ace's postulated reason -- beyond a mental illness or kooky idealogy -- to commit suicide.

Actually, my point was in regards to any case. We can do our best to convince someone otherwise, council them on better solutions from our perspective. But ultimately, it should be their choice, not ours. (keeping in mind we're naturally excluding those too immature to make such a decision)

[Surlethe]

Actually, my point was in regards to any case. We can do our best to convince someone otherwise, council them on better solutions from our perspective. But ultimately, it should be their choice, not ours. (keeping in mind we're naturally excluding those too immature to make such a decision)

Again, whether or not it is a choice or a right is irrelevant to my point, which regarded rationale.

[Robert Walper]

Actually, my point was in regards to any case. We can do our best to convince someone otherwise, council them on better solutions from our perspective. But ultimately, it should be their choice, not ours. (keeping in mind we're naturally excluding those too immature to make such a decision)

Again, whether or not it is a choice or a right is irrelevant to my point, which regarded rationale.

How does one define "rational" out of curiousity?

[Surlethe]

Actually, my point was in regards to any case. We can do our best to convince someone otherwise, council them on better solutions from our perspective. But ultimately, it should be their choice, not ours. (keeping in mind we're naturally excluding those too immature to make such a decision)

Again, whether or not it is a choice or a right is irrelevant to my point, which regarded rationale.

How does one define "rational" out of curiousity?

ra·tion·al Audio pronunciation of "rational" ( P ) Pronunciation Key (rsh-nl)
adj.

1. Having or exercising the ability to reason.
2. Of sound mind; sane.
3. Consistent with or based on reason; logical: rational behavior. See Synonyms at logical.
4. Mathematics. Capable of being expressed as a quotient of integers.


n. Mathematics

A rational number.

2 entries found for rationale.
ra·tion·ale Audio pronunciation of "rationale" ( P ) Pronunciation Key (rsh-nl)
n.

1. Fundamental reasons; the basis.
2. An exposition of principles or reasons.

[Robert Walper]

*snip*

Well, suicide by definition isn't a irrational action.

[Surlethe]

*snip*

Well, suicide by definition isn't a irrational action.

Again, that doesn't address my point, which regarded rationale.

[Comrade Tortoise]

I suppose a good question for Comrade Tortoise before this goes too far: Do you consider euthenasia suicide?

As far as I can tell Robert Walper, and certainly I, have been operating from the position that willfully killing yourself over a very short time-span--in any and all situations--is suicide. Your definitions seem to be different, so this should be clear between all parties.

I do not consider Euthenasia to be suicide.

[Comrade Tortoise]

Define "mentally fit". And asserting your personal beliefs and feelings on subjects does not constitute establishing "mental fitness".

Well, here is the definition of mental disporder straight from the textbook.

A Behavior of thought which is atypical, maladaptive, distressing/disabeling and finally unjustifiable.

Suicidal thoughts fit the entire category, provided it is NOT for purposes such as defense of others, or escaping from the slow wasting death of terminal illness. Because such things are justifiable, and most especially, sacrificing one's self for others is not atypical. As anyone in this forum would probably do it.

If we are talking about suicide, the above cases of altruistic defense, or euthenasia, really dont count. As they are not within the normal working definition of suicide.

Now you're nitpicking terminology or selectively employing it. Suicide as I'm defining it is the intentional killing of one's self. You asserted that "no mentally fit person would commit suicide". I countered that assertion.

Walper, specific words have specific uses in language. No one, in everyday speach, uses the word suicide to mean euthenasia, or throwing yourself in front of a bullet to save someone else. The words WORKING definitions, the ones which are actually used, are different.

[Robert Walper]

Now you're nitpicking terminology or selectively employing it. Suicide as I'm defining it is the intentional killing of one's self. You asserted that "no mentally fit person would commit suicide". I countered that assertion.

Walper, specific words have specific uses in language. No one, in everyday speach, uses the word suicide to mean euthenasia, or throwing yourself in front of a bullet to save someone else. The words WORKING definitions, the ones which are actually used, are different.

Definition nitpicking aside, you're assertion that no mentally fit person would commit suicide is still wrong. See above for examples.

[Anonymous]

Simple ideology:

Suicide is not wrong, each has his or her right to live or die as you possess the control over your life. I do not want to enter religious arguments here; no energy.

It's not wrong to suicide, but it's a damn selfish move; it's a move that bestows a lot of grief upon the rest of your family and friends, it's cutting down the tree before drying its roots. I see no reason why suicide would be efficient or worthwhile in the broad sense (speaking in the mainstream of civilisation). If you've got family and friends, why suicide and cause grief? Why would you be such a bastard to act so?

It's not wrong morally, but you've got to be a self-righteous, sick little bugger to do it. You've got to be pretty screwed-over in your mind to do something like that.

That's me.

[Robert Walper]

Simple ideology:

Suicide is not wrong, each has his or her right to live or die as you possess the control over your life. I do not want to enter religious arguments here; no energy.

It's not wrong to suicide, but it's a damn selfish move; it's a move that bestows a lot of grief upon the rest of your family and friends, it's cutting down the tree before drying its roots. I see no reason why suicide would be efficient or worthwhile in the broad sense (speaking in the mainstream of civilisation). If you've got family and friends, why suicide and cause grief? Why would you be such a bastard to act so?

It's not wrong morally, but you've got to be a self-righteous, sick little bugger to do it. You've got to be pretty screwed-over in your mind to do something like that.

That's me.

The problem being all acts by people are selfish. They only vary in their magnitude of affectings others. Furthermore a person is entitled to worry about their own interests above others.

[Anonymous]

By that (the above) I mean that that's my opinion, not that I'm the twisted sicko.

[Comrade Tortoise]

Now you're nitpicking terminology or selectively employing it. Suicide as I'm defining it is the intentional killing of one's self. You asserted that "no mentally fit person would commit suicide". I countered that assertion.

Walper, specific words have specific uses in language. No one, in everyday speach, uses the word suicide to mean euthenasia, or throwing yourself in front of a bullet to save someone else. The words WORKING definitions, the ones which are actually used, are different.

Definition nitpicking aside, you're assertion that no mentally fit person would commit suicide is still wrong. See above for examples.

Actually, my point was in regards to any case. We can do our best to convince someone otherwise, council them on better solutions from our perspective. But ultimately, it should be their choice, not ours. (keeping in mind we're naturally excluding those too immature to make such a decision)

Falsehood, absolute falsehood.. lets take the general case with a person who commits suicide. They suffer from chronic depression or untreated bi-polar disorder. oftentimes they suffer from psychotic disorders such as schitzophrenia. They are not mentally competant to make the choice. Even if they have the right to do it. So your assertion that people have the choice to commit suicide in ANY case is wrong.

Now, lets take a more off the wall case. The stock market crash. People jumped off buildings. This is because they were distraught and not thinking clearly. At the time, they were not mentally competant to make the choice.

Homeless people. Most of them suffer from one debilitating mental illness or another. Did you know that? They go off their meds and live on the street. If one of them kills themselves, see above point on people with mental illnesses. Of those that are not mentally ill, they tend not to commit suicide. And often times, their homelessness is short lived. A normal, healthy individual who is thinking clearly, and is, for example, merely hurting financially, will commit suicide.

Come on walper, point to an example of a person who was not mentally ill, in a western nation, commiting suicide. I dare you. Show me one. And I am not talking about hypothetical scenarios here, I am talking an actual case.

[Anonymous]

Simple ideology:

Suicide is not wrong, each has his or her right to live or die as you possess the control over your life. I do not want to enter religious arguments here; no energy.

It's not wrong to suicide, but it's a damn selfish move; it's a move that bestows a lot of grief upon the rest of your family and friends, it's cutting down the tree before drying its roots. I see no reason why suicide would be efficient or worthwhile in the broad sense (speaking in the mainstream of civilisation). If you've got family and friends, why suicide and cause grief? Why would you be such a bastard to act so?

It's not wrong morally, but you've got to be a self-righteous, sick little bugger to do it. You've got to be pretty screwed-over in your mind to do something like that.

That's me.

The problem being all acts by people are selfish. They only vary in their magnitude of affectings others. Furthermore a person is entitled to worry about their own interests above others.

Ultimately you're right. A person is eventually 100% selfish; the trick of civilisation is to make your interest at least partly congruent with those of the people closest to you. The situation must be truly drastic or you must be very queer in order to perform an act which is immorally, according to civilisation's etiquette, sick. Both cases I mentioned above that might lead to suicide are out of mainstream.