The morality of prostitution?

[frigidmagi]

If he's talking about the Jewish Torah or Christian Old Testament then 3000 is about the right number actually Kresh.

[Kreshna Aryaguna Nurzaman]

If he's talking about the Jewish Torah or Christian Old Testament then 3000 is about the right number actually Kresh.

[frigidmagi]

No worries.

[Lord Stormbringer]

Strawman, I gave the caveat that prostitution is OK if there is no coercion, direct or INDIRECT. But the chances are, even if prostitution is legalized and controlled, the girl is still, deep down inside, unwilling to do the work. She was probably forced into that line of work (which few sane people would go into voluntarily) by some outside pressure.

SO while prostitution is not INHERENTLY unethical and immoral, it is both, in a good number of cases. based upon the circumstances of the prostitute.

Ben, you're constructing a scenario that would make any job unethical! Very few people would work at all if they had the option. But because they need money to survive they work. That's how an economy works.

It would be more honest to admit you just have a problem with prostituion because you don't like the concept of paying people for sex.

Setting an extrodinarily (and unreasonably) high bar is just a fancy dodge. Every job has a degree of coercion to it and prostitution should not have an absurdly high bar attached simply to make people feel better about a gut emotional, religious reaction. If a woman has no skills, there are other jobs available, McDonalds for one. If they chose willingly to go into it, that's no more coercive than any other job.

[Surlethe]

On the other hand, if a tech support guy is answering phones with a gun to his head, knowing if he doesn't answer a phone, he gets his brains blown out, then that job is unethical, as well. I don't see how you can extend the fact that direct coercion to do any sort of work is unethical, including prostitution, to stating prostitution is unethical.

Strawman, I gave the caveat that prostitution is OK if there is no coercion, direct or INDIRECT. But the chances are, even if prostitution is legalized and controlled, the girl is still, deep down inside, unwilling to do the work. She was probably forced into that line of work (which few sane people would go into voluntarily) by some outside pressure.

Bullshit. My analogy precisely satisfies the conditions you laid out. As a matter of fact, let's examine your argument: if a person is unwilling to work, then his job is unethical. But, humans are inherently lazy; thus, given the opportunity, no human would work. Hence, no job is ethical; reductio ad absurdum.

SO while prostitution is not INHERENTLY unethical and immoral, it is both, in a good number of cases. based upon the circumstances of the prostitute.

Have you taken a poll of manual laborers lately? I think you'll find grounds for an ethics complaint with the government.

[Cynical Cat]

If he's talking about the Jewish Torah or Christian Old Testament then 3000 is about the right number actually Kresh.

To really nit pick, it was set down in writing in its current form about 400 BC give or take. It's origins are older, of course, but there is evidence to suggest they made stuff up (or suddenly included or recieved divine revelation) about that time.

[frigidmagi]

Gentlemen I find your comparsion of hooking to manuel labor rather weak and hallow. A better comparsion would be to solders I think, although I think being a troop is safer than being a hooker even in a legalize enviroment.

[Comrade Tortoise]

Setting an extrodinarily (and unreasonably) high bar is just a fancy dodge. Every job has a degree of coercion to it and prostitution should not have an absurdly high bar attached simply to make people feel better about a gut emotional, religious reaction. If a woman has no skills, there are other jobs available, McDonalds for one. If they chose willingly to go into it, that's no more coercive than any other job.

Are you familiar with "survival prostutiton" Aaron? it is when a person has nothing, is living on the streets, and resports to prostitution to survive. This happens a lot to the large fraction of homosexual teenagers who get booted from their homes. It also happens to homeless drug addicts etc etc etc.

That is not free will Aaron. It is not a line of work that most people would willingly go into.

As I have said, and others have ignored, there is a level of risk involved in prostitution which makes being forced into it, a decidedly bad thing. This level of risk is not present in other occupations such as tech support. You dont catch deadly diseases from keyboards.

Is it really that hard a thing for poerson X to do when getting a hooker? To think about why this person saying "I'm so horny" is doing what she is doing?

Paying money for sex is not inherently immoral or unethical. But the circumstances can, in some instances, make it that way, and THAT is the point of whqt I am trying to say. People try to simplify it by saying :it is just exchanging money for sex" but it is a hell of a lot more than that.

But, humans are inherently lazy; thus, given the opportunity, no human would work. Hence, no job is ethical; reductio ad absurdum.

Dont try to twist my meaning. You know exactly what I meant by that. No other profession in the world that I can think of can make a person feel dirty when they get home. Which is the point I was trying to convey, but it seemed that it flew right over your head

[Lord Stormbringer]

Are you familiar with "survival prostutiton" Aaron? it is when a person has nothing, is living on the streets, and resports to prostitution to survive. This happens a lot to the large fraction of homosexual teenagers who get booted from their homes. It also happens to homeless drug addicts etc etc etc.

If you're forced to prostitution in a developed country, chances are you've made more than a few bad choices. And your answer to those unfortunate people that have screwed up so badly as to wind up with no option but prostitution is to make it illegal and have them face the gamut of dangers from violent pimps, to deliberate druggings, to unprotected sex, to abusive, violent customers? Where the hell does condemning, stigmatising, and making them legal targets help?

That is not free will Aaron. It is not a line of work that most people would willingly go into.

As for willingly go into, neither would some one make McDonalds, or garbage collecting, or janitorial work. Some times life sucks and you've got to take a shitty job.

As I have said, and others have ignored, there is a level of risk involved in prostitution which makes being forced into it, a decidedly bad thing. This level of risk is not present in other occupations such as tech support. You dont catch deadly diseases from keyboards.

Look up Alaska Crab Fishing.

Or Prison Guard.

Or Inner City Police.

Or Industrial Fire Fighting.

Or Oil Well Workers.

Or Millwrights.

Your unique risk arguement is bull-fucking-shit. There are plenty of jobs exponentially more likely to get some one killed, maimed, or fucked up for life than legal prositution. Open your eyes, get out of your Ivory Tower, and look at the real world; there are plenty of dirty, shitty, dangerous jobs and legalized, regulated prostitution is a far cry from some of those.

Compare well run, well regulated, and upscale adult film companies to Alaskan crab fishing. Tell me which gets more people killed and maimed per capita yearly?

Paying money for sex is not inherently immoral or unethical. But the circumstances can, in some circumstances, make it that way, and THAT is the point of whqt I am trying to say.

No but you're drawing up unrealistic, hypocritical, and abusrd standards to justify calling it immoral and forcing it to remain illegal. Guess what, despite your more atheist, more logical than than though attitude this is just sounding more and more like a knee-jerk emotional, religious apologist excuse.

But, humans are inherently lazy; thus, given the opportunity, no human would work. Hence, no job is ethical; reductio ad absurdum.

Dont try to twist my meaning. You know exactly what I meant by that. No other profession in the world that I can think of can make a person feel dirty when they get home. Which is the point I was trying to convey, but it seemed that it flew right over your head

We're not twisting your meaning. You're setting an absurd standard where by even the basic, natural requirement to do something productive becomes cohersion. That's an impossible bar and you're acting like it's not.

As for feeling dirty, isn't that a lot a product of religious shame-mongering and apologist twats like you? There have been plenty of times and societies in history which had legal, formal prostitution with out the shame attached. If we're looking to improve their lot, why not start there? Why make it horrible, stigmatising, oh and by the way putting them in a situation where the law abets their denigration and abuse?

[Lord Stormbringer]

Gentlemen I find your comparsion of hooking to manuel labor rather weak and hallow. A better comparsion would be to solders I think, although I think being a troop is safer than being a hooker even in a legalize enviroment.

The comparison for measurable bodily harm is actually quite apt. There are plenty of manual labor jobs which carry with them a tremendous risk of permanent injury and death. Look at fishermen, oil field workers, or some of those proffessions. They carry astounding rates of crippling injury and death. The comparison to well regulated sex industry jobs is actually apt, if not generous in favor of the sex worker.

[Comrade Tortoise]

If you're forced to prostitution in a developed country, chances are you've made more than a few bad choices. And your answer to those unfortunate people that have screwed up so badly as to wind up with no option but prostitution is to make it illegal and have them face the gamut of dangers from violent pimps, to deliberate druggings, to unprotected sex, to abusive, violent customers? Where the hell does condemning, stigmatising, and making them legal targets help?

Now where the fuck did I say it should be illegal. I have stated multiple times in this thread that it SHOULD be legal. But of course that is ignored. I even laid out what sort of regulations would need to be in place. But of course, no one pays any attention to that. jesus fucking christ.

and forcing it to remain illegal.

See that scarecrow over there? I think Dorothy just set him on fire!

never said it should remain illegal. Exactly the contrary, but of course you dont bother reading my previous posts so I cant really expect you to be honest now can I?

If anything, by making it legal, we reduce the suffering of the prostitutes, and can at least eliminate or slow the spread of disease.

As for feeling dirty, isn't that a lot a product of religious shame-mongering and apologist twats like you?

Why it is there is irrelevant, all that matters is that it IS there.

Your unique risk arguement is bull-fucking-shit. There are plenty of jobs exponentially more likely to get some one killed, maimed, or fucked up for life than legal prositution. Open your eyes, get out of your Ivory Tower, and look at the real world; there are plenty of dirty, shitty, dangerous jobs and legalized, regulated prostitution is a far cry from some of those.

And I have not been talking about legalized prostitution when I refer to the survival prostitution of America's homosexual yourth.

Again, prostitution =/bad. The circumstances of that prostitution can MAKE it that way. Face it storm, some people are forced into prostitution against their free will . It is a fact of life which even the most pig-headed need to accept. We might be able to eliminate that by making it legal, or we might not, for the same reason it is possible to get otherwise legal things on the black market. Clears up the red tape, and some giys will always want to remain anonymous and will like to go unprotected.

Again, I am not saying that prostitution is always immoral, or that it should remain illegal. Simply that people ask a couple simple god damn questions, instead of thinking with their god damn penis.

[Lord Stormbringer]

Now where the fuck did I say it should be illegal. I have stated multiple times in this thread that it SHOULD be legal. But of course that is ignored. I even laid out what sort of regulations would need to be in place. But of course, no one pays any attention to that. jesus fucking christ.

Except you're saying how horribly unethical it is! By your insane, maniac standards everyone is being forced into it! Pardon me if I can't understand under what circumstances you believe it should take place.

Because right now you think it's unethical and immoral if they take it because they need a job.

And I have not been talking about legalized prostitution when I refer to the survival prostitution of America's homosexual yourth.

Pardon me but what the hell are you saying? You don't say enough for that to make sense.

Why it is there is irrelevant, all that matters is that it IS there.

No, it does matter where it's from. Gays and Bisexual often feel shame because of pressure and propoganda from Christian groups. Does that mean that it doesn't matter. That they should just go one feeling shame because some bible thumpers feel they should? Hell no!

This situation is no different. They aren't doing anything wrong but people, including you, seem to feel that they should be ashamed. The shame shouldn't be there, and using it as a reason just perpetuates a vicious circle.

Again, prostitution =/bad. The circumstances of that prostitution can MAKE it that way. Face it storm, some people are forced into prostitution against their free will .

When you say "against free will" you mean something as mundane as needing a job. To me, again, that respresents your fundamental overreach for a "safe" way to justify a stance based on religious apologism and emotional distaste.

Clears up the red tape, and some giys will always want to remain anonymous and will like to go unprotected.

People will always do stupid things. We might as well have at least some protected rather than none.

Again, I am not saying that prostitution is always immoral, or that it should remain illegal. Simply that people ask a couple simple god damn questions, instead of thinking with their god damn penis.

First, don't turn this into your usual gay men have cleared veiws crap.

Second of all, have you considered that most of agree that it should be legal, protected, and not stigmatized because that's what's best and what's right? That we are not looking for absurd outs but looking at what's best in the real world.

[Comrade Tortoise]

First, don't turn this into your usual gay men have cleared veiws crap.

When have I ever done that, save for when specifically refering to homosexuality? How the fuck do you take "I am superior because I am gay" from "how about ask a couple questions instead of thinking with the penis"

o!

This situation is no different. They aren't doing anything wrong but people, including you, seem to feel that they should be ashamed. The shame shouldn't be there, and using it as a reason just perpetuates a vicious circle.

Should be? No. When have I ever made a moral judgmeent regarding the morality of the prostitute her/himself in this thread? Have I ever refered to prostitutes as evil? Have I ever said they should feel ashamed? No. So stop claiming that I have. I know you are capable of being intellectually honest. please, try to act like it. Dont disappoint me

A situtation can make a neutral situation, a bad one. The situation of prostitution itself can be immoral. But the actiosn of the individual prostitute not be.

In simple terms. The Situtation can be a bad and horrible one, without ever meaning that the person trapped in it is bad.

When you say "against free will" you mean something as mundane as needing a job. To me, again, that respresents your fundamental overreach for a "safe" way to justify a stance based on religious apologism and emotional distaste.

being booted from one's home is hardly mundane. Being brought into the US with promises of wealth and fortune, only to be sold into sexual slavery is not mundane (and it does happen in this country, we still have problems with human trafficing) not being able to get a job due to drug addiction and being forced to seel one;se;f for food and crack is not mundane.
Remember, I am not talking about a legalized bothel system here. but prostitution AS IT CURRENTLY EXISTS IN THE US.

If we legalize it and form hooker unions, we will STILL have situtations like that. They will be reduced, which is good, but they will still exist.

Except you're saying how horribly unethical it is! By your insane, maniac standards everyone is being forced into it! Pardon me if I can't understand under what circumstances you believe it should take place.

See above Jackass.

Look at it this way storm. How many people are going to be looking through the want ads looking for a job and say "Hey, there is a good find, I can go apply at the local brothel!" It wont happen storm. Or if it does, not very often.

It is the difference between prostitution, and destructionator's tech support job. He needed a job, found one in tech support and said "I can do that" and applied. Very very very few people will ever have that sort of reaction to prostitution. At least not while we have our current set of cultural more's

No, it does matter where it's from. Gays and Bisexual often feel shame because of pressure and propoganda from Christian groups. Does that mean that it doesn't matter. That they should just go one feeling shame because some bible thumpers feel they should? Hell no!

you are mistaken what SHOULD be and what IS when you try to make moral judgements. When you make a moral judgement, you should take into consideration the current sitution is, not what your ideal situtation is.

The fact is, most people are uncomfortable with prostitution. They would feel dirty inside while practicing it. This makes it markedly different from telemarketing jobs, which dont make people feel dirty(but I would argue, SHOULD)

We have to take into account what the emotions of people involved are, regardless of where they come from, or how valid you think those emotions are, when we make a determination regarding the moral state of a situation.

[Kreshna Aryaguna Nurzaman]

Then what is actually immoral is the religious views on prostitution, which, among other things, makes most prostitutes feel dirty for doing their job, right?

Look at it this way storm. How many people are going to be looking through the want ads looking for a job and say "Hey, there is a good find, I can go apply at the local brothel!"

Without religion, I guess such thing above would happen normally in society; that is, viewing prostitution as pretty "normal" profession. Regarding to "immorality" happens in prostitutions, religion is the primary cause, am I correct?


non-religious, non-conservative views: prostitution is merely another job alternative, and people can take the job voluntarily.

religious, conservative views: prostitution is a dirty job, and people should feel dirty by having that profession.

With such religious views becomes social norm, wouldn't people feel dirty, feel coerced, to take a job as prostitute? Why should prostitutes feel dirty, if not because of the way society views them? Which is what actually happens at some countries? Why can't people just say "I can apply at the local brothel", if not for the pressure from (religious) society?

Now, regarding to "immorality" in prostitution, what actually should be blamed?


I know this is a tangent to "CT vs others" debate, but I'm really interested on WHAT actually makes prostitutes feel dirty for doing their job, and WHAT actually makes prostitution 'different' than, say, tech. support guy.


EDIT: IMO, it is the "feel dirty" part that makes the most difference. As for human trafficking and slavery, mind you that such thing is not exclusive to prostitution; it also happens in manufacturing (slave labors and the likes).

[Charon]

CT's debate is still on topic enough. But to address your question KAN, I believe some of the issue also has to deal with the idea that a person's body is something that is personal and in a way sacred, be it religiously or not. There is also the concept that all one truly has is their body. Under these reasonings, many would see prostitution as a selling of ones body and therefore unethical in that regard. It also certainly does not help that human trafficking and slavery are often seen hand in hand with prostitution.

The worlds oldest profession suffers from image, prostitution brings up so many bad images (Slavery, rape) that it is immediately seen as unethical.

[Robert Walper]

I haven't seen any arguement that defines prostitution as unethical or immoral. The only arguement floating around is 'persons hate the job'...which covers just about 99% of people's feelings on any job out there.

[Lord Stormbringer]

When have I ever done that, save for when specifically refering to homosexuality? How the fuck do you take "I am superior because I am gay" from "how about ask a couple questions instead of thinking with the penis"

Because you're making the accusation of "thinking with my penis" in the first place? I mean really, why go there unless that's what you're implying?

Should be? No. When have I ever made a moral judgmeent regarding the morality of the prostitute her/himself in this thread?

Yes, you have! You've said they should feel dirty and forced for taking the job. That they should feel shame and disgust with themselves for doing a job. To me that amounts to a moral judgement. Why should they feel ashamed if the job isn't wrong?

being booted from one's home is hardly mundane.

New flash shit for brains, it happens. And it happens to a lot of people. I can tell you, I've had friends kicked out of the house for good and I can't say any of them turned to prostitution.

But guess what, this is just a fucking weepy-ass tangent to make yourself feel better. So either get to a point of make

Being brought into the US with promises of wealth and fortune, only to be sold into sexual slavery is not mundane (and it does happen in this country, we still have problems with human trafficing) not being able to get a job due to drug addiction and being forced to seel one;se;f for food and crack is not mundane.

And sexual slavery equates to a well regulated, above board industry how? Oh wait, it doesn't. This is just another red herring you've made up.

Remember, I am not talking about a legalized bothel system here. but prostitution AS IT CURRENTLY EXISTS IN THE US.

And when have I ever said I approve of that system? I find it disgusting and degrading as it's practiced. But it's not prostitution but all the major problems that said illegality brings with it.

If we legalize it and form hooker unions, we will STILL have situtations like that. They will be reduced, which is good, but they will still exist.

So what? Plentiful food supplies mean fat people. Is food wrong and evil and unethical? Cars can kill and maim. Are cars wrong and evil and unethical?

Perfection in the system is not reasonable and not sane. Have you ever considered that one can despise those problems cases with out condemning the whole thing. Once again you're setting up an impossible to satisfy condition in order to justify a fundamentally irrational belief.

Look at it this way storm. How many people are going to be looking through the want ads looking for a job and say "Hey, there is a good find, I can go apply at the local brothel!" It wont happen storm. Or if it does, not very often.

Probably not that many. But given that there are plenty of adult film stars, including big time celebrity ones, and more that want to be, I think there are probably more than you think.

It is the difference between prostitution, and destructionator's tech support job. He needed a job, found one in tech support and said "I can do that" and applied. Very very very few people will ever have that sort of reaction to prostitution. At least not while we have our current set of cultural more's

And perhaps, like non-hetrosexual sexual orientations, the problem is not the act but the social mores that make it something shameful and degrading?

Plenty of Classical civilizations like Greece and Rome had organized prostitute classes. They weren't scorned or abused or harassed. So why should we condmen the act because of bible thumpers?

you are mistaken what SHOULD be and what IS when you try to make moral judgements. When you make a moral judgement, you should take into consideration the current sitution is, not what your ideal situtation is.

Why should I defer my judgement to the same bible thumping assholes that say homosexuality and bisexuality is wrong? Why should I defer to those same folks that believe any sex between consenting adults not meant to produce a kid is evil and wrong? Why should I defer my judgment to people that say you're evil for being gay. Or I'm evil for my own orientation and interests? I honestly do not see any good reason that bible-thumper-morality (nor their apologists) should dictate my views.

If you want me to believe that prostitution as practiced today is wrong, already there. But as I've said, the problem not paying for sex but all the abuse, degredation, and inhumane behaviour that it's accumulated from illegality and scorn.

The fact is, most people are uncomfortable with prostitution. They would feel dirty inside while practicing it. This makes it markedly different from telemarketing jobs, which dont make people feel dirty(but I would argue, SHOULD)

And I can tell you're one of those uncomfortable people. That doesn't make it right.

We have to take into account what the emotions of people involved are, regardless of where they come from, or how valid you think those emotions are, when we make a determination regarding the moral state of a situation.

Shame and guilt are there because these woman believe, and have been told, they're doing something horrible and wrong. If there weren't people like you telling them to be ashamed, I'd imagine that a great many of them wouldn't feel that.

As I've said before, there have been plenty of societies that have practiced regulated, socially acceptable prostitution and suprise, suprise it was neither as dysfunctional nor has it been as degrading.

[Comrade Tortoise]

Because you're making the accusation of "thinking with my penis" in the first place? I mean really, why go there unless that's what you're implying?

ANyone with a reading level above the 4th grade mark could notice I was speaking in the plural third party "you" perhaps I should have been more clear. Maybe add a disclaimer to my posts.

Yes, you have! You've said they should feel dirty and forced for taking the job. That they should feel shame and disgust with themselves for doing a job. To me that amounts to a moral judgement. Why should they feel ashamed if the job isn't wrong?

No, I said they DO feel dirty inside you dishonest twat. I grow tired of your distortions. Honestly Storm I really do think that the wizard of Oz will be disappointed. If you aren't careful, your arguments may not get his seal of approval and you might now get your Doctor of Thinkology.

hereis what I said

No other profession in the world that I can think of can make a person feel dirty when they get home.

Notice: Not that they should feel dirty, rather, that they tend to feel dirty. Maybe you should read my posts before you distort them because that attempt was so ham-fisted a seven year old can see through it.

New flash shit for brains, it happens. And it happens to a lot of people. I can tell you, I've had friends kicked out of the house for good and I can't say any of them turned to prostitution.

But guess what, this is just a fucking weepy-ass tangent to make yourself feel better. So either get to a point of make

I am sure you are aware that anecdotes arent evidence. Hold on, let me get my empirical evidence.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/quer ... t=Citation

A common theme identified in empirical studies and clinical reports of lesbian, gay male, and bisexual youths is the chronic stress that is created by the verbal and physical abuse they receive from peers and adults. This article reviews the verbal and physical abuse that threatens the well-being and physical survival of lesbian, gay male, and bisexual youths. This response to gay male, lesbian, and bisexual adolescents by significant others in their environment is often associated with several problematic outcomes, including school-related problems, running away from home, conflict with the law, substance abuse, prostitution, and suicide. Although the causal link between these stressors and outcomes has not been scientifically established, there is suggestive evidence that these outcomes are consequences of verbal and physical harassment.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/quer ... t=Citation

One hundred and thirty people working as prostitutes in San Francisco were interviewed regarding the extent of violence in their lives and symptoms of posttraumatic stress disorder (PTSD). Fifty-seven percent reported that they had been sexually assaulted as children and 49% reported that they had been physically assaulted as children. As adults in prostitution, 82% had been physically assaulted; 83% had been threatened with a weapon; 68% had been raped while working as prostitutes; and 84% reported current or past homelessness. We differentiated the types of lifetime violence as childhood sexual assault; childhood physical abuse; rape in prostitution; and other (non-rape) physical assault in prostitution. PTSD severity was significantly associated with the total number of types of lifetime violence (r = .21, p = .02); with childhood physical abuse (t = 2.97, p = .004); rape in adult prostitution (Student's t = 2.77, p = .01); and the total number of times raped in prostitution (Kruskal-Wallace chi square = 13.51, p = .01). Of the 130 people interviewed, 68% met DSM III-R criteria for a diagnosis of PTSD. Eighty-eight percent of these respondents stated that they wanted to leave prostitution, and described what they needed in order to escape.

http://www.chicagohomeless.org/PART/youth.pdf

THE COMMERCIAL SEXUAL EXPLOITATIONi OF
HOMELESS YOUTH
FACT SHEET
HOW MANY:
1. 162,000 homeless youthii are estimated to be victims of commercial sexual
exploitation in the U.S. iii
2. 57,800 children in homes (including public housing) are estimated to be victims of
commercial sexual exploitation in the U.S. iv
3. 30% of shelter youth and 70% of street youth are victims of commercial sexual
exploitation in the U.S.v
4. 8,400 chronically homeless youthvi are estimated to be victims of commercial sexual
exploitation in Illinois.vii
THE AGES:
5. 1 in 3 persons involved in street-level prostitution in the U.S. convention and
tourist citiesviii is under 18 years of age. ix
6. 1 in 2 persons involved in off-street-level prostitutionx in the U.S. convention and
tourist cities is under 18 years of age.xi
7. 12 - 14 is the average age of entry into prostitution for girls under 17.xii
8. 11 -13 is the average age of entry into prostitution for boys under 17.xiii
THE ABUSE:
9. 61% of homeless girls and 19% of homeless boys reported having been sexually
abused before leaving home.xiv
10. 66% of those prostituted suffer from Post-traumatic Stress Disorder.xv
11. 90% of those prostituted are survivors of sexual violence such as incest and sexual
assault.xvi
THE OFFENDERS:xvii
12. 35% of sexual assault offenders report having experienced physical or sexual abuse
while growing up.xviii
13. Offenders generally include: pedophiles, transient males including members of the
military, truck drivers, seasonal workers, conventioneers and sex tourists,
opportunistic exploiters, pimps, traffickers, and other juveniles.xix

http://canada.justice.gc.ca/en/ps/rs/re ... 1-13a.html

* Many young prostitutes ran away or were forced out - or «thrown away» (see, for example, Lowman, 1987) - at an early age from home environments they described as intolerable, including frequent cases of physical, sexual and emotional abuse.
* Many males involved in prostitution may have run away to escape discrimination based on their sexual orientation.
* In many respects, intrafamilial family violence and dysfunction often provides the impetus to leave home.
* Following their decision to run away, many prostitutes were attracted («pulled») to street-life by a desire for autonomy and money.
* Once on the streets the situational poverty of street involved youth (i.e., below average education, limited employment skills, youth unemployment and inadequate services) and a steady (male) demand for sexual services, make prostitution a viable alternative for some youths.

I can didg up more, but I will let you stew in your own ignorance for a while. I suggest you visit the ivory tower occassionally, it has all kinds of rerferences and bits of research on the people who you dont see when you are "out and about" in the "real world"

And sexual slavery equates to a well regulated, above board industry how? Oh wait, it doesn't. This is just another red herring you've made up.

OK, look, I know you dont have a brain, but you really should stop the song and dance number. WHile you are doing that, the crows are eating your crops.

There are two seperate discussions in this thread. One, which is what the OP requested, on the morality of prostitution itself, as it exists.

The second and parallel discussion, is whether prostitution should be legal.

I am arguing that it is immoral as it exists in the US, and that to reduce that immorality, it should be made legal and heavily regulated.

But you are to stupid to notice that, and are too interested in distorting what I say. Fuck off.

Although, I do have a response to that. DO you honestly think that there wont be sexual slavery if prostitution becomes legal? The justification for it, which I support, is that sexual slavery will be reduced. But come on, people who want to, will still break the law. Come down to Arizona, take a look at all the illegal mexican immigrants that work in above-the-table industries, like fast food, and construction. Payed below minimum wage tax-free under the table.

You think that just because there are laws in place that people wont break them? You really are blind.

But again, just so you cant distort my meaning.

THE PRIMARY JUSTIFICATION FOR MAKING PROSTITUTION LEGAL IS THAT IT WILL THE SUFFERING OF THE PROSTITUTES, AND REDUCE HEALTH RISKS AS A RESULT PF PROSTITUTION. AND I SUPPORT, AND STAND BEHIND, THAT JUSTIFICATION.

Dont make me send out my flying monkies.

And when have I ever said I approve of that system? I find it disgusting and degrading as it's practiced. But it's not prostitution but all the major problems that said illegality brings with it.

And I would agree with you partially. Many of the problems with prostitution are caused by its illegality. However there are problems with it that will always be there, regardless of how legal and well regulated it is.

I point you to the above statistics and abstracts regarding who becomes a prostitute. You think that will change when it is made legal? You think our cultural more's regarding being a prostitute will suddenly vanish? No. The same people will become prostitutes. The same disfunctional, fucked up people.

There will still be less than reputable brothels which take immigrants and slaves (and yes, they still exist) holding them in bondage (no pun intended)

The Mafia I am willing to bet will muscle in on legal prostitution just like they do the illegal prostitution.

The point is not that the practice of giving money for sex is immoral. That depends on the individual codes of ethics which we all use. I personally, and I will admit it, find the practice disgusting because of my ever so slightly conservative views on personal sexuality.

The point is that it is a situtation which is rife with corruption, regardless of it's legal status. The circumstances surrounding the economic exchange currently, are almost universally immoral (the only situtation where it isn't is when a "free spirited" person works out of their apartment/dorm and advertises...somehow). And if made legal, that frequency of immorality will decrease, but not vanish.

So what? Plentiful food supplies mean fat people. Is food wrong and evil and unethical? Cars can kill and maim. Are cars wrong and evil and unethical?

False analogy. Food and cars are not the intentional degredation and predation upon human beings. A car does not enslave immigrants.

Probably not that many. But given that there are plenty of adult film stars, including big time celebrity ones, and more that want to be, I think there are probably more than you think.

Maybe, but not enough to fill the demand I would wager

Plenty of Classical civilizations like Greece and Rome had organized prostitute classes. They weren't scorned or abused or harassed. So why should we condmen the act because of bible thumpers?

Not everything is about the bible thumper boogyman. There are good sociobiological reasons as well. Like preventing the spread of disease, and disrupting group functioning by screwing up geneology and breaking up marriages.

Not to defend the practice of scorning prostitutes, I think it is outdated, but the practice is not completely arbitrary.

If you want me to believe that prostitution as practiced today is wrong, already there. But as I've said, the problem not paying for sex but all the abuse, degredation, and inhumane behaviour that it's accumulated from illegality and scorn.

OK, I think we may have reached some semblance of agreement there

Shame and guilt are there because these woman believe, and have been told, they're doing something horrible and wrong. If there weren't people like you telling them to be ashamed, I'd imagine that a great many of them wouldn't feel that.

OK. I was starting to be less angry. But you need to stop outright lying about my position RIGHT NOW.

[Lord Stormbringer]

ANyone with a reading level above the 4th grade mark could notice I was speaking in the plural third party "you" perhaps I should have been more clear. Maybe add a disclaimer to my posts.

Or maybe not make the sort of holier than thou statements you're so fond of in the first place?

Notice: Not that they should feel dirty, rather, that they tend to feel dirty. Maybe you should read my posts before you distort them because that attempt was so ham-fisted a seven year old can see through it.

Distort, you're saying that because they're prostitution they will feel dirty and shamed. Yet you have not once at all considered why they would. So the fact that you accept it as a given, indeed inevitable, part of it makes me wonder just what the hell you do think.

I can didg up more, but I will let you stew in your own ignorance for a while. I suggest you visit the ivory tower occassionally, it has all kinds of rerferences and bits of research on the people who you dont see when you are "out and about" in the "real world"

And again I will acknowledge, indeed inform you, that I'm well aware that such things occur. What you haven't gotten through your thick, lead-lined skull is that: NOT EVERY PROSTITUTE IS AN UNWILLING SEX SLAVE. NOR IS EVERY DOWN ON THEIR LUCK HUMAN BEING FORCED INTO PROSTITUTION. One of the reasons I believe it should be legalized and the moral stigma removes is to pevent such abuse! Because this is a business completely with out legal oversight or ethical guides, these problems occur.

Now will you get off your fucking red-herring tangent who's only purpose is to further an emotional, irrational reaction in favor of your apparenty disgust and disdain for prostitution?

There are two seperate discussions in this thread. One, which is what the OP requested, on the morality of prostitution itself, as it exists.

Actually, there is one discussion. Whether prostitution itself is immoral or not. Or did you not read that?

Although, I do have a response to that. DO you honestly think that there wont be sexual slavery if prostitution becomes legal? The justification for it, which I support, is that sexual slavery will be reduced. But come on, people who want to, will still break the law. Come down to Arizona, take a look at all the illegal mexican immigrants that work in above-the-table industries, like fast food, and construction. Payed below minimum wage tax-free under the table.

You think that just because there are laws in place that people wont break them? You really are blind.

In my last post I acknowledged that there will always be law breakers. But compare that to the present situation of illegality. Each and every one engaging in it is breaking the law, regardless of the actual behaviour or standards. That gives no incentive at all for ethical business conduct or concern for employee health. So which is the better option?

THE PRIMARY JUSTIFICATION FOR MAKING PROSTITUTION LEGAL IS THAT IT WILL THE SUFFERING OF THE PROSTITUTES, AND REDUCE HEALTH RISKS AS A RESULT PF PROSTITUTION. AND I SUPPORT, AND STAND BEHIND, THAT JUSTIFICATION.

Which is completely under cut by the sheer length and time you've spent on harping how evil prostitution is. And how it's unethical for anyone to be a prostitute unless they have no actual reason to. To me that's as Two-Faced as Harvey Dent.

And I would agree with you partially. Many of the problems with prostitution are caused by its illegality. However there are problems with it that will always be there, regardless of how legal and well regulated it is.

Ben, I know there will be problems still. There is no business out there, even legal and benign ones, that doesn't have it's share of problems. However do you really think that law does nothing? If that's the case, where are the five year olds in factories in our dear US of A?

I point you to the above statistics and abstracts regarding who becomes a prostitute. You think that will change when it is made legal? You think our cultural more's regarding being a prostitute will suddenly vanish? No. The same people will become prostitutes. The same disfunctional, fucked up people.

Possibly, possibly not. But the incentive to grab some street person and sell their body for money is going to be alot less when there are above board, legal, and clean brothels operating. The dysfunctionality of drug abuse, blackmail, and slavery simply is not going to be any where near as prevelant as it is today.

Simply because when it can be done legally, 90% or more of people would rather just do it legally.

As for your comparison to illegal immigration, I would point out that that is a problem resulting from literaly a half or more century of non-enforcement, lax enforcement, or just plain under-funded enforcement of the law. If Wal-Mart or McDonalds or whoever actually faced real consequences then the relative value of that illegal labor is going to go down, fast. Enforce the law, deal with the real problem, and things will change drastically.

False analogy. Food and cars are not the intentional degredation and predation upon human beings. A car does not enslave immigrants.

No, it's an apt analogy. You've just missed the point of it. Because something can be bad, doesn't mean it's always bad. And it's foolish to judge something only by the bad. But I see that "brick to the face obvious" is too subtle for you.

Legal prostitution should not be degrading and stigmatizing and dangerous. Compare porn, women like Jenna Jameson or Dita Von Teese actually have respectable status, even celebrity, and if any one is preyed on it's the men that shell out for their movies. These are not people leaving lives of brutality, slavery, and degradation.

Maybe, but not enough to fill the demand I would wager

If it's not stigmatized and illegal, then you would probably be suprised. Pornagraphy is a thriving industry with no shortage of people interested in starting.

Not everything is about the bible thumper boogyman.

No but the main moral condemnation of has, is, and will in all likelyhood forever be those self same bible thumpers.

There are good sociobiological reasons as well. Like preventing the spread of disease, and disrupting group functioning by screwing up geneology and breaking up marriages.

Disease? Your average nightclub or dirty chatroom probably contributes as much or more. As does simple human stupidity.

Disrupting group function by screwing up geneology? Your average amateur crack 'ho does more for that. And if you don't believe that, sit in on family court for day. Besides, unless a hooker wants to get pregnant she should have the options available to see she doesn't. And if there's any question of paternity, we have DNA tests. This isn't the Middle Ages where breeding and blood line count for all, now is it?

Breaking up marriage? No Fault divorce law has do a million times more than prostitution ever has to harm that particular institution. So has amateur infidelity. (And my goodness, where have I heard this same defense of marriage arguement? Oh yeah, the same bible thumpers that think gays will destroy marriage. The company you keep...)

But you need to stop outright lying about my position RIGHT NOW.

And once again, you need to actually figure out and state what your position is. Because you say that prostitution should be legal yet you have spent a huge amount of time calling in unethical and immoral and predatory.

[Comrade Tortoise]

Distort, you're saying that because they're prostitution they will feel dirty and shamed. Yet you have not once at all considered why they would. So the fact that you accept it as a given, indeed inevitable, part of it makes me wonder just what the hell you do think.

You are a fucking moron if you think that modern americans, a group that is comprised mostly of moderate protestants and catholics, who view prostitution as something that is not a good thing, will not feel guilty if they engage in prostitution. I speak of the majority. There are always odd cases of people who engaging in prostitution. But I have never said that they all do, so you are once again, commiting genocide against Mr. Scarecrows relatives.

Take a look at the stats. Do you think that those youths engaging in prostitution ENJOY IT? Do you think that they do so because they think they have a choice?

I swear your IQ has to be in single digits.

NOT EVERY PROSTITUTE IS AN UNWILLING SEX SLAVE. NOR IS EVERY DOWN ON THEIR LUCK HUMAN BEING FORCED INTO PROSTITUTION.

I never claimed that they were you worthless twat.

Actually, there is one discussion. Whether prostitution itself is immoral or not. Or did you not read that?

Then why has it morphed into a discussion regarding legality? Two seperate mini-topics in the same thread, and they are not inextricably intertwined.

But you are too much of an idiot to make the distinction.

Which is completely under cut by the sheer length and time you've spent on harping how evil prostitution is. And how it's unethical for anyone to be a prostitute unless they have no actual reason to. To me that's as Two-Faced as Harvey Dent.

hmm an actual reason. You mean like being sexually abused as a child and being so destitute and drug-addled that they think they have no other choice? because those are the sort of people who become prostitutes (setting aside the non-mass-majority of cases)

If you want the legal practice to be ethical, you have to screen out those individuals, otherwise you further their trauma. Especially if they were abused. (if you dont think that an abused person will not be further damaged by being a prostitute you dont deserve to keep your frontal lobe)

Good luck removing the social stigma. That is going to take a few decades if you can get it done at all. Then and only then will you get people who want to be prostitues without being "damaged goods" in sufficiant numbers to meet even existing demand. let alone the demand when you remove the social stigma from it.

Ben, I know there will be problems still. There is no business out there, even legal and benign ones, that doesn't have it's share of problems. However do you really think that law does nothing? If that's the case, where are the five year olds in factories in our dear US of A?

Nice distortion.

Several issues

1) Children are hard to miss during inspections. An immigrant or homeless person can be missed during said inspections. Come to Arizona. You will understand

2) Most jobs are not especially open to the sort of corruption that prostitution in a brothel would be. And if I need to explain why the mob would muscle in on an industry that they already (in large part) control, you are a lost cause.

The law is not useless. But you have to recognize that the legal and ethical issues surrounding prosecution will be much greater in scale than just about any other legal enterprise. Brothels will have to be hyper-regulated and under constant legal scrutiny. It should still be done, but that is how it will have to be done. There is more potential for abuse and wrongdoing in that industry than just about anything else I can think of.

Possibly, possibly not. But the incentive to grab some street person and sell their body for money is going to be alot less when there are above board, legal, and clean brothels operating. The dysfunctionality of drug abuse, blackmail, and slavery simply is not going to be any where near as prevelant as it is today.

Again, constant legal scrutiny, and mandatory psych evaluations for every employee by a state employed shrink, performed twice anually. To much potential for abuse to take it lying down, so to speak.

and I suspect there will be plenty of RICO indictments

As for your comparison to illegal immigration, I would point out that that is a problem resulting from literaly a half or more century of non-enforcement, lax enforcement, or just plain under-funded enforcement of the law. If Wal-Mart or McDonalds or whoever actually faced real consequences then the relative value of that illegal labor is going to go down, fast. Enforce the law, deal with the real problem, and things will change drastically.

I would agree. But it will have to be a MASSIVE investment of resources; and frankly, I am too cynical to think that people will stand for the tax hikes required for enforcement of both illegal immigration laws, OR the protection of prostitutes.

Legal prostitution should not be degrading and stigmatizing and dangerous. Compare porn, women like Jenna Jameson or Dita Von Teese actually have respectable status, even celebrity, and if any one is preyed on it's the men that shell out for their movies. These are not people leaving lives of brutality, slavery, and degradation.

And you think the local whores in the (almost necessarily) seedy brothel down the street are going to enjoy the same status? HA! Dont make me laugh. There are only a few porn stars compared to the number of prostitutes there would be. There is not a whole lot to enforce in porn.

If it's not stigmatized and illegal, then you would probably be suprised. Pornagraphy is a thriving industry with no shortage of people interested in starting.

How many porn actors are there in the United States?

Disrupting group function by screwing up geneology? Your average amateur crack 'ho does more for that. And if you don't believe that, sit in on family court for day. Besides, unless a hooker wants to get pregnant she should have the options available to see she doesn't. And if there's any question of paternity, we have DNA tests. This isn't the Middle Ages where breeding and blood line count for all, now is it?

I am refering to the reason those more's exist moron. Our society did not develop in a gorram vacuum. Many of them are shaped by our history. Again, I think they are outdated, but they exist for reasons that; when they were developed, were damn good reasons.

Breaking up marriage? No Fault divorce law has do a million times more than prostitution ever has to harm that particular institution. So has amateur infidelity. (And my goodness, where have I heard this same defense of marriage arguement? Oh yeah, the same bible thumpers that think gays will destroy marriage. The company you keep...)

You see that herring over there? I think it has an odd pigment mutation.
The "defense of marriage" bit is irrelevant. Gay marriage has nothing to do with prostitution.

There is a massive difference between the gays getting married and magically breaking up a family; and blowing his paycheck on ale and whores, and subsequently bringing home the clap.

Again, stop pulling the fundie boogyman out of the closet you fucktard.

And once again, you need to actually figure out and state what your position is. Because you say that prostitution should be legal yet you have spent a huge amount of time calling in unethical and immoral and predatory.

OK, because your reading comprehension is lacking and you cant connect dots very well, I will spell it out for you.

A) Prostitution as it existsis immoral, predatory, and degrading. It is a public health risk

B) Making it illegal, but hyper-regulated will reduce these problems

C) It will create whole new ones unless the laws are enforced very strictly. And I am too cynical to think that they will be, or perhaps can be. Depending on the area; because of a combination of an apathetic body politic, and corruption in government in some areas.

D) We are stuck in a place with prostitution that we dont want to be in as a society.

[Charon]

*does a nice mod ah hem*

Take a step back, both of you, take a breath. Relax.

[The Village Idiot]

If selling is legal, and f***ing is legal, why isnt selling F***ing legal?
George Carlin

I believe prostitution is an amoral profession, but then again I am looking at it if the prostitue (male, female, other....) is acting in said profession by their own free will and judgement, unaffected by ANY outside force.

[Ace Pace]

There is no need to censor yourself on this board.

[Hashava]

but then again I am looking at it if the prostitue (male, female, other....) is acting in said profession by their own free will and judgement, unaffected by ANY outside force.

THEORETICALLY, you're right, but practically, it almost never happens.... :sad:

[Ace Pace]

Suprisingly, in Germany it's working out well, you have freaking prostitution unions.