Just watched Episode II

[Destructionator XV]

Well, this was actually the first time I got to watch AtoC uninterrupted, and it was good.

Here are my thoughts on this film:

It has some excellent humour. Kenobi has an awesome wit throughout the movie. Some of my favourite lines:

"Then we deicded to rescue you."

"Good job."

"What about Padme?"

"She seems to be on top of things."

And a 3PO quote:

"This is such a drag." as his head is being dragged around.

It is like early Bond humor.

I find it bizarre that the Senate is so effective at voting in dictators but they can't seem to do anything else.

The chemistry between R2 and 3PO is good throughout the saga. I like it here.

On Kamino, Obi Wan was told there were only 250000 troops ready and another million will be ready shortly. Some grand army.

Naboo is still a pretty place.

I really loved the Imperial March again in this film. Again, a few notes are heard as Yoda speaks on Anakin, then when it goes full blast at the end is amazing.

Good film.

[Ra]

The chemistry between R2 and 3PO is good throughout the saga. I like it here.

Indeed... The humor in this movie was classic. AOTC may not have been the best Wars movie, but it was certainly the funnest.

On Kamino, Obi Wan was told there were only 250000 troops ready and another million will be ready shortly. Some grand army.

Now, I'm no Warsie (quite the contrary), but Lama Su said 250,000 units, not individual troops. This can be interpreted as individual troops, and often is in versus debates, but I'm quite positive he was speaking in the context of combat units; IE, a self-sustainable combat force. Say, for the sake of things, battalions.

Simply put, 250,000 troops would not be enough to wage even one planetary campaign. Take this example; the modern US Army has 120,000 troops in Iraq, and that isn't enough, despite what Rummy says time and again; it's a quagmire, and they can't keep more insurgents from crossing over from Syria and Jordan. If an army can't keep a country the size of Iraq secure with half that number, then by no means could the GAR secure, much less attack, an entire planet. Technology, training, and equipment can negate that brutal fact only up to a point.

All that said, the writers should have clarified instead of using the vague phrase "units".

I really loved the Imperial March again in this film. Again, a few notes are heard as Yoda speaks on Anakin, then when it goes full blast at the end is amazing.

Agreed. The scene right at the end was amazing, with all the Acclamators taking off into the Coruscant sky, embazoned in the light of the setting sun. Both emotionally moving, and somewhat symbolic of the sun setting on the Galactic Republic.

My addition to all this, an honorable mention should go to Mace fucking Windu, the BAMF, and the fight scene with Count Dooku.

[Destructionator XV]

Indeed. When I heard the number, I was thinking that was monsterously low. Maybe if one unit equaled 10,000 men or more it would be acceptable as a starting number (still not enough to wage full scale Galactic war though).

I figure the Clones are used as a Federal elite troops, with normal recruits forming the bulk of the army. The Kamino dude said they can grow clones in half the time: this is still about 10 years from start to finish! Whereas putting a recruit through boot takes just a few weeks.

[Robert Walper]

My interpretation of the "200,000 units with a million more well under way" was that the number seemed pretty low as well.

Then I started thinking. Planets like Naboo seem well populated and modernized, and yet according to the Queen's security forces leader "We have no army." So modernized planets such as Naboo don't even have military forces. Then one her of advisors states "There hasn't been a full scale war since the formation of the Republic". So the entire Republic apparently hasn't had serious war issues for (presumeably) quite some time. This history could've easily lead to military aspects such as spending, recruitment and other resources dwindling significantly. To the point where, as the Naboo example shows, planets don't even have military forces nor see the use for them.

Alderaan is described as "having no defenses", although supposedly employing a planetary shield system. I wouldn't be surprised if Alderaan also has no army to speak of either.

But even assuming that most of the worlds in the Republic are relatively defenseless with virtually no military strengths to speak of, the number of troops doesn't seem adaquate to hold even a few planets.

But then again, what if it depends on how those troops would occupy and control such worlds?

If you have large interstellar spacecraft bristling with relatively heavy weapons and fighter loadouts, suddenly your force is far more dangerous. Imagine a fleet of 200+ warships crewed by a thousand troops. That's two hundred worlds you can intimidate with an orbiting warship, capable of launching devestating orbital attacks, or even fighter assaults. 1/5 of a single warship's troop complement dedicated to fighter assaults would give each ship the ability to strike at any planetary target with 200 armed (potentially heavily so) fighter craft.

Suddenly, intimidating defenseless planets on a large scale doesn't seem far fetched at all. Once those million other clone troopers are available, you've just multiplied your ability to intimidate and 'control' planets by a factor of six. Or twleve hundred worlds.

And nor does this force need to have a ship over every world at every moment. Controlling large populations doesn't require this. There's a reason why a madman with a gun holding only six bullet can control a crowd of fifty people.

[frigidmagi]

Then I started thinking. Planets like Naboo seem well populated and modernized, and yet according to the Queen's security forces leader "We have no army." So modernized planets such as Naboo don't even have military forces.

Whoa Walper I think you're reaching. Naboo did have military formations, the starfighters and the pilots who flew them for example, has well as the Queens guards. While this is clearly no army, it is a military force, just a small and rather weak one. Naboo's military/paramilitary forces seem designed to defend the planet more from pirate raids or other small scale troubles.

Also we know the Republic had a star fleet, just a very spread out one. I agree completly that it is likey that the military was underfunded and understaffed at the time of AoTC and PM, but it still exist, abet in a almost Federation like form.

Also scienctist and military men do not use usually use the pharse unit to refer a singluar enitity. That breeds confusion, which both science and military organizations strive to prevent. I find it more like that units refers to an actual unit make of indiviual clones. Consider, the clones weren't used to terrorize planets into submission, but pitched into battle against drone land forces. It is unlikey that a mere 1.25 million troops could have fought an intergalaxtic war and won against forces that can replace their loses alot more easily than organics can. This suggest to me that there must have been more, anywhere from 40 million(still a tiny number for such a vast war) to around 40 billion (I don't think the factories shown could produce, house, train and feed that many clones, but it makes a decent extreme upper limit I think).

Given the easily observed fact that combat was bloody for the clone army I think we have to believe there were more than a single million of them. Especially with the view we are given of the drone factories in mind.

[Robert Walper]

Then I started thinking. Planets like Naboo seem well populated and modernized, and yet according to the Queen's security forces leader "We have no army." So modernized planets such as Naboo don't even have military forces.

Whoa Walper I think you're reaching. Naboo did have military formations, the starfighters and the pilots who flew them for example, has well as the Queens guards. While this is clearly no army, it is a military force, just a small and rather weak one. Naboo's military/paramilitary forces seem designed to defend the planet more from pirate raids or other small scale troubles.

*nods* Fair enough. I erred in asserting "no army = no military forces". But generally, my point was that even a well devoloped planet such as Naboo has very little in the way of defenses. Naboo didn't even raise any type of shields to prevent landfall of enemy forces.

Furthermore, their entire fighter craft arsenal was still unable to defeat a single orbiting warship, and only won by virtue of Anakin's abilities and stupidity on part of the Trade Federation forces.

Also we know the Republic had a star fleet, just a very spread out one. I agree completly that it is likey that the military was underfunded and understaffed at the time of AoTC and PM, but it still exist, abet in a almost Federation like form.

I wasn't implying there was no military forces throughout the entire Republic. Surely they'd have some significant military forces here and there. But like you said, very poor overall. Thus the introduction of a well equipped, well trained and dedicated force would be a pretty damn significant event.

Also scienctist and military men do not use usually use the pharse unit to refer a singluar enitity. That breeds confusion, which both science and military organizations strive to prevent. I find it more like that units refers to an actual unit make of indiviual clones.

I still think that is argueable. After all, the Kamino Prime Minister was discussing the clones as product being produced by their genetic laboratories. As I understand it, businesses and corperations when referencing produced products (like say computer monitors), use the term 'unit' and 'units' respectively in reference to individual items, not groups of them.

Consider, the clones weren't used to terrorize planets into submission, but pitched into battle against drone land forces. It is unlikey that a mere 1.25 million troops could have fought an intergalaxtic war and won against forces that can replace their loses alot more easily than organics can.

It was stressed that the clone troopers were vastly superior to droid armies, the only armies of significance during these time periods. Furthermore these droid armies were controlled by business corperations and individuals. Hardly people I'd say are optimized for using, deploying and understanding their resources as 'military' forces.

This suggest to me that there must have been more, anywhere from 40 million(still a tiny number for such a vast war) to around 40 billion (I don't think the factories shown could produce, house, train and feed that many clones, but it makes a decent extreme upper limit I think).

I haven't seen any reason to pick arbitrary numbers for the clone army's 'upper limit'. We have a number to work with, and I think it's best to try and work with it. I by no means assert this is all the clones produced overall. No doubt creating them was a full time and ongoing operation, with a higher number yielded during and after the war. But I see no reason to exaggerate the current number by a factor of 40 to 40 thousand.

I suspect it boils down directly to the interpretation of the term "units".

Given the easily observed fact that combat was bloody for the clone army I think we have to believe there were more than a single million of them. Especially with the view we are given of the drone factories in mind.

I never heard any production numbers given for the droid armies, and thus I question just how many droids people think they were producing. I've read claims of "many tens of thousands per day", but seen no basis for that in the movies. Even in ROTS, the Seperatist's main holdout on "The Ontobar System" only had "thousands of battledroids" according to Obi Won's informant.

The Seperatists had:
-plenty of droids no doubt, although I think their number has be greatly overestimated
-moronic businessmen leaders taking orders from a Sith Lord who's intent on them losing

The Republic had:
-superior technology, given their warship's effectiveness and clone trooper weapons
-vastly superior troops, quote: "Clones can think creatively. You will find they are immensely superior to droids."
-superior tactics, such as aerial bombardment of enemy ground forces and possessing ground attack vehicles capable of downing Seperatist starships
-devestatingly combat capable Jedi forces, which not only take out large numbers of enemies but strike fear into the droids (amusingly enough)
-plenty of aid from indigenous populations (Such as Wookies, Gungans, etc)
-the leader of the Seperatist forces is taking orders and conspiring with the Replublic leader, with the intention of the Replubic coming out on top (or Empire have you)

Even with significantly lesser numbers, the Clone army seems to have all of the advantages.

[Lord Stormbringer]

Also scienctist and military men do not use usually use the pharse unit to refer a singluar enitity. That breeds confusion, which both science and military organizations strive to prevent. I find it more like that units refers to an actual unit make of indiviual clones.

I still think that is argueable. After all, the Kamino Prime Minister was discussing the clones as product being produced by their genetic laboratories. As I understand it, businesses and corperations when referencing produced products (like say computer monitors), use the term 'unit' and 'units' respectively in reference to individual items, not groups of them.

Walper, the business sense merely refers to the smallest sellable grouping. A box of a 50 bolts is a unit, a six pack of pop would be a unit. We don't know what that unit refers to but all evidence, let alone logic, suggests that its larger than a single man. Logic again would suggest that is entirely possible that unit refers to a combat unit, anything from a platoon to a Army Group.

Curtis Saxton's page on the paradge ground scene.

You'll note that the lowest end count puts it at 336,000 troops, assuming there is absolutely nothing off screen. And between 2 and 3 million if we assume the whole starport is being used, given Acclamators move into the shot from offscreen, is far more likely. Given this is after the battle and occupation of Geonosis it seems odd that all (and then some) clones would be at one place, if we accept the unit = one man hypothesis.

I'm not one of the Vs Debate Maxminalists but I think it's safe to say that 1.2 million is hideously low for the numbers we're talking about. It makes no logic sense given what we know of the Galatic population, the profusion of clones through out the military (as observed in the movies), and the fact that the Empire can produce a military exponentially larger. In short, every thing says that unit is not a single man.

[Robert Walper]

I'll concede the arguement then.

[Comrade Tortoise]

*nods* Fair enough. I erred in asserting "no army = no military forces". But generally, my point was that even a well devoloped planet such as Naboo has very little in the way of defenses. Naboo didn't even raise any type of shields to prevent landfall of enemy forces.

I know you have conceeded, but I like to nitpick

Well, you have look at their culture. They despise war. The queen refused to "condone a course of action that would lead them to war" with the enemy fleet landing on her planet. Even if she HAD a planetary shield, I doubt she would have used it.

Then, she fights to defeat the "military creation act" which, I can only guess would give actual funding to ground troops

Furthermore, their entire fighter craft arsenal was still unable to defeat a single orbiting warship, and only won by virtue of Anakin's abilities and stupidity on part of the Trade Federation forces.

One: they had a pathetically small fighter arsenal if that one or two squadrons was all they had.

Two: They were not heavy fighters. They were not purpose built for taking down capital class ships, but rather, for combating pirate fighters, which, at that time, would have been more dated than Z-95s

I still think that is argueable. After all, the Kamino Prime Minister was discussing the clones as product being produced by their genetic laboratories. As I understand it, businesses and corperations when referencing produced products (like say computer monitors), use the term 'unit' and 'units' respectively in reference to individual items, not groups of them.

Not always. Some industries refer to "unit" as a shipment, or pallete. It depends on context, and in the context of cloning a military, they simply would not use that term for an individual solider.

It was stressed that the clone troopers were vastly superior to droid armies, the only armies of significance during these time periods. Furthermore these droid armies were controlled by business corperations and individuals. Hardly people I'd say are optimized for using, deploying and understanding their resources as 'military' forces.

Yeah, but if the numbers are too small, it is like 10 golliath beetles trying to stand up to a wall of army ants

No doubt creating them was a full time and ongoing operation, with a higher number yielded during and after the war. But I see no reason to exaggerate the current number by a factor of 40 to 40 thousand.

Save that an obscenely large number of troops is needed to take a single world. And there are a LOT of worlds in the SW galaxy.

In order to physically take a well defended world will take over a million troops, minimum. That says nothing about holding the territory. Now remember that we are dealing with a civilization which has weapon yields in the gigaton to teraton range. FIrst wave cassualties will be HUGE

I never heard any production numbers given for the droid armies, and thus I question just how many droids people think they were producing. I've read claims of "many tens of thousands per day", but seen no basis for that in the movies. Even in ROTS, the Seperatist's main holdout on "The Ontobar System" only had "thousands of battledroids" according to Obi Won's informant.

OK Walper, in order to take a world, you need to be able to get past their planetary defenses. Including the planet's army. The Republic may not have had much for a standing army at that point, but the individual worlds did. You SAW their production system in AOTC. There were no man hour considerations, no food, nothing. Just production. Even if we assume they had only that single assembly line, and they produce 1 droid every 2 seconds, they will still be producing 43200 droids a day.

[Robert Walper]

I know you have conceeded, but I like to nitpick

CT, the purpose of your reply was nothing more than "getting the last word in on a discussion already settled you weren't even a part of".

As a fellow staff member, I'd recommend you review board policies here, with particular attention to section VI.

PS: I'm not trying to be a dick CT, but seriously, you should know better. After all, we must set an example for the puny underlings of the board, right?

[Comrade Tortoise]

I know you have conceeded, but I like to nitpick

CT, the purpose of your reply was nothing more than "getting the last word in on a discussion already settled you weren't even a part of".

As a fellow staff member, I'd recommend you review board policies here, with particular attention to section VI.

PS: I'm not trying to be a dick CT, but seriously, you should know better. After all, we must set an example for the puny underlings of the board, right?

Um, it is not thead necromancy if the thread is still active. If it was at the bottom of the page, or several pages back you would have a point.

Also, I enjoy nitpicking and analysis in and of themselves, and just quoting Saxton does not give the sort of detail I prefer. If that offends, please, take it up with my base personality structure.


PS: I was not trying to be a dick, raise the dead, or practice a vendetta. I merely wanted to post like I had been trying to (connection problems), and nothing, not even a concession can stop me once I have set my mind to it.

[Lord Stormbringer]

Ben, the time to get in on a discussion is before it's settled.

Also, I enjoy nitpicking and analysis in and of themselves, and just quoting Saxton does not give the sort of detail I prefer.

Curtis does far, far better work than your post. I linked to the page because it was pointless to duplicate his work, which comprehensively proves the point anyway.

[Comrade Tortoise]

Ben, the time to get in on a discussion is before it's settled.

Also, I enjoy nitpicking and analysis in and of themselves, and just quoting Saxton does not give the sort of detail I prefer.

Curtis does far, far better work than your post. I linked to the page because it was pointless to duplicate his work, which comprehensively proves the point anyway.

What can I say, I am stubborn bastard that will not let connection problems get in my way.

[Lord Stormbringer]

Which doesn't make you any less a bastard (which isn't exactly admirable).

[Comrade Tortoise]

Which doesn't make you any less a bastard (which isn't exactly admirable).

true.