Force Sub: Doctor Who in The Best of Both Worlds (TNG)

[Narsil]

The Doctor as of the start of Parting of the Ways gets teleported (along with the TARDIS) into the Trek universe, taking the place of the USS Enterprise. Starting from when the Borg Cube is on the edge of the system... can he stop it before it reaches earth, or will even the mighty Doctor find himself struggling against this foe?

Edit: http://www.drwhoguide.com/mp3/who9.mp3 compulsory theme song.

[Elheru Aran]

Cube's fucked. Given that the Tardis is built to resist opponents on the level of the Daleks? I think it's safe to say the Borg go down, hard.

[The Silence and I]

I really have no idea. I wasn't even aware the Tardis was armed--as is suggested above.

For that matter all I know about Daleks is they cannot climb stairs despite being able to fly, and they are armed with some kind of weapon.

[Robert Walper]

Can anyone provide detailed information on the Tardis, Dr Who and resources he has on hand?

For example, can the Tardis resist the Borg level tractor beam? Being boarded by drones? Having it's systems infected with Borg nanoprobes? etc, etc...

[Ra]

The TARDIS was built by the Timelords, a civilization that could eat the Culture or Galactic Empire (SW or Foundation, it doesn't matter) for breakfast. In fact, more advanced models existed; the Doctor's model is obsolete. That should tell you something about its ability to resist the Borg right there.

[Cynical Cat]

The TARDIS is able to resist Dalek firepower in an era when a Dalek cruiser can crack open a planet like an egg. If need be, the Doctor could fly the TARDIS through the cube as a hyper kinetic weapon, although he isn't inclined to kill if he can avoid it.

Will Borg nanoprobes work on a Timelord? Don't know. Timelords superficially appear to be human but live for centuries and have the ability to regenerate into different forms. Will they work on the TARDIS? Almost definitely not. The Borg's centralized and all encompassing command network and their tendency to ignore intruders probably means they'll get hacked, sent to sleep, and then put on ice by the Doctor before they know what hit them.

EDIT: Borg are, after all stupid, weak, gunless cybermen knock offs and the Doctor has dealt with them plenty of times.

[Narsil]

The TARDIS can fly through a blackhole (no cracks needed for THIS ship), travel anywhere, and anywhen in short amounts of time. Often been referred to as billions of lightyears in 'mere moments'. The TARDIS, however, is entirely unarmed, since it is not designed for combat. I suppose it boils down to the Doctor's overall resourcefulness in this situation. If the worst comes to the worst, it'll be Tennant killing the Borg and not Eccleston .

[frigidmagi]

The TARDIS was built by the Timelords, a civilization that could eat the Culture or Galactic Empire (SW or Foundation, it doesn't matter) for breakfast. In fact, more advanced models existed; the Doctor's model is obsolete. That should tell you something about its ability to resist the Borg right there.

It tells us plenty about the makers of the Tardis, but damn little about the Tardis itself. Our civilization today is able to whip the snot outta 1700 England, this does not mean your average modern yacht can stand up to a British Man O War. So tell me about the Tardis. Is it armed? What's it firepower? Does it have shields or armor? Does it have a computer system or does something else run it? What kinda speed does it pull?

[Ra]

Jesus, Dak and the Cat answered it for you more adequately. Don't rip into me because I couldn't meet your standards.

[Cynical Cat]

The TARDIS can survive being hit with planet buster weapons. It can swiftly travel through space and time, crossing billions of years in moments. The Doctor's isn't armed, but it is sentient and can be used as a kinetic energy weapon. The TARDIS contains its own pocket dimension and vast internal spaces. The TARDIS is intelligent, but isn't a computer in our sense of the word. It has access to enormous power over the time stream, including an incident where it empowered a human with the ability to restored life to the dead and obliterated a time travel equipped fleet of Time War era Daleks.

[Narsil]

It tells us plenty about the makers of the Tardis, but damn little about the Tardis itself.

Okay, let's start shall we.

Our civilization today is able to whip the snot outta 1700 England, this does not mean your average modern yacht can stand up to a British Man O War.

Poor example there frigid. The TARDIS is hardly a 'yacht' by any sense of the imagination. A better analogy would be a severely protected science and exploration vessel, designed to survive any concievable (or inconcievable) hazard it may encounter.

So tell me about the Tardis. Is it armed?

In the conventional sense? No. But it has survived about 900 years of random skirmishes with Daleks, Cybermen and other Renegade Timelords.

What's it firepower?

Completely erasing an entire empire from the time/space continuum. Not used very often because of the Doctor's modus operandi, but it still works.

Does it have shields or armor?

Does bouncing off of a black hole without so much as a scratch in its blue paintwork count?

Does it have a computer system or does something else run it?

Cynical Cat has already answered that one.

What kinda speed does it pull?

Now this is my favourite part... the Doctor stated once that the TARDIS is capable of travelling billions of lightyears in seconds. In short: Really, really, really, really, really fast.

[frigidmagi]

Poor example there frigid. The TARDIS is hardly a 'yacht' by any sense of the imagination. A better analogy would be a severely protected science and exploration vessel, designed to survive any concievable (or inconcievable) hazard it may encounter.

Then it's a damn good thing I didn't call the Tardid a fucking yacht isn't it? I gave an example of a ship built by a techonolically superior civilization verus one of a lesserly advance civilization. At no time did I suggest it was a perfect metaphor for the Tardis verus a cube or even an imperfect one. It was a example of how being built by a more advance group of people doesn't mean that the object in question will instantly kick ass.

[Narsil]

Then it's a damn good thing I didn't call the Tardid a fucking yacht isn't it?

There's no need for the language, and I never said that you called the TARDIS a yacht, I in fact said: "In this instance, that's a poor example."

I gave an example of a ship built by a techonolically superior civilization verus one of a lesserly advance civilization.

Which is still a poor example. That yacht isn't millions of years more advanced, it's hundreds of years more advanced.

At no time did I suggest it was a perfect metaphor for the Tardis verus a cube or even an imperfect one.

My main reply was to your violent and generally flaming response to Ra. Not your example.

It was a example of how being built by a more advance group of people doesn't mean that the object in question will instantly kick ass.

You also ignored several other posts detailing the TARDIS' capabilities and directly attacked Ra's post. You have ignored both Cynical Cat and my posts, and if you seriously wish to continue this discussion, I suggest that you answer them.

[Cynical Cat]

Dakarne, frigid asked for a qualification of the TARDIS's abilities, which was entirely proper. As he pointed out, being of a product higher level of technology does not necessarily mean that it is a superior warship. Being of a higher tech level doesn't mean much, its capabilities are. He didn't "violently flame" Ra, he told him his answer wasn't sufficient and he needed more information.

And then you got all snippy about it, as if asking for a description of the TARDIS's abilities was some kind of insult. It isn't. It's what you do when someone has made a claim about a subject you aren't familiar with: you establish capabilities.

You haven't been called a liar. You haven't been insulted. You've been acting like an arrogant twit because frigid doesn't follow Doctor Who and has the temerity to ask for hard data before making a decision. Settle down.

[Ra]

Dakarne, frigid asked for a qualification of the TARDIS's abilities, which was entirely proper. As he pointed out, being of a product higher level of technology does not necessarily mean that it is a superior warship. Being of a higher tech level doesn't mean much, its capabilities are. He didn't "violently flame" Ra, he told him his answer wasn't sufficient and he needed more information.

And then you got all snippy about it, as if asking for a description of the TARDIS's abilities was some kind of insult. It isn't. It's what you do when someone has made a claim about a subject you aren't familiar with: you establish capabilities.

I'm not Dak, but let me throw this in. The "level of technology" stuff is frankly an absurd argument. Lemme just break it down barney style for everyone:

A: Is the TARDIS armed? No.

B: Can the TARDIS go back in time and erase the dude whose cybernetic experiments run amok led to the Borg, if it had to? Abosutely.

You haven't been called a liar. You haven't been insulted. You've been acting like an arrogant twit because frigid doesn't follow Doctor Who and has the temerity to ask for hard data before making a decision. Settle down.

More like he got up my ass because *I* don't follow the series avidly. Sure, he may have "needed more information", but he did ask it in a manner that I found to be repugnant.

I don't want to end up in a flamefest with this guy, I was just simply wanting to nip the Borg situation in the bud, answering Walper as best as I could. Namely, that the Borg couldn't assimilate the damned thing. Shit like that.

[Cynical Cat]

Ra, you gave him a vague answer and he asked for specifics. And now you're offended because he asked it in an "elitist" manner. You don't want to back up your claims, don't make them. We may not flame like SDN, but we still expect claims to be backed up and frigid's questions, and his example for why his questions are relevant, were quite proper.

Claims still need to be backed up.

Whinning (and yes you and Dakarne are whinning) about how the question is phrased when there isn't a single flame in it isn't what is required. Evidence is.

If you want to say that the TARDIS can go back in time and stop the Borg from ever existing, say it instead of saying "The Time Lords are Uber". They are, but that doesn't explain much to the uninitiated does it?

You don't want to be grilled for specifics, don't post vague statements. frigid has every right to ask for specifics and he didn't flame you once. He gave you a clear, concise list of concerns that he wanted answered. If that offends you, grow a thicker skin.

[Robert Walper]

If the Tardis can indeed defeat the Borg threat as easily as a human may squash an ant (or easier as some might assert)....is there really a point to the question?

Unless someone is going to provide some information such as exploitable vulnerabilities of the Tardis, or advantages the Borg may employ, the question won't get very far.

And if the purpose of the thread in question isn't to actually debate the issue, but instead wank over how one side effortlessly obliterates the other, I'd say the thread qualifies as spam. And I'd expect the resident moderator to deal with it accordingly.

[Narsil]

If the Tardis can indeed defeat the Borg threat as easily as a human may squash an ant (or easier as some might assert)....is there really a point to the question?

You can count the weapons of the TARDIS on the fingers of Darth Vader's biological hand. The TARDIS is very powerful, no doubt, but short of ramming it, there's no damage that it can do directly

The entire point of this thread is actually The Doctor's wits and resourcefulness against the Borg, he merely has access to the afformentioned time/space-travel device.

Unless someone is going to provide some information such as exploitable vulnerabilities of the Tardis, or advantages the Borg may employ, the question won't get very far.

Irrelevant. The TARDIS is merely a means for the Doctor's resourcefulness, not a weapon. The Borg don't need to attack/destroy the TARDIS (is such a thing even possible?!) because it is not a weapon, it is an unarmed-yet-incredibly-resilient vehicle.

And if the purpose of the thread in question isn't to actually debate the issue, but instead wank over how one side obliterates the other, I'd say the thread qualifies as spam.

No, it's because a few people misinterpret the TARDIS as a Warship, it's a lot of things, but a Warship it ain't.

[Cynical Cat]

Destroying a TARDIS is quite possible. The Doctor had no doubt at all that the Dalek missles would have destroyed the TARDIS if the forcefield hadn't been raised. Neither did the Daleks, for that matter. It is, however, extremely durable.

The Borg's problem against the doctor is that they aren't bright. There only advantage against the Federation is the shear power of their technology and they are routinely beaten because of their inability to act intelligently, a crime for which many Star Trek writters should burn, for their inability to handle the Borg decently.

Against the Doctor, who routinely deals with far more advanced and capable technology and bends it to his will, this is a severe weakness. They will continue to ignore the Doctor, like they do all boarders, as he resets their command pathways of their cube with a sonic screwdriver. Honestly, we are talking about a foe that was vulnerable to being destroyed by being sent an insolvable puzzle and was shut down by a signal from a captured drone. Trek's writers really dropped the ball on Borg and wrecked a good idea.

What the Borg really need is to be redone by Doctor Who's writers. I'm so looking forward to what they do with the Cybermen.

[Robert Walper]

If the Tardis can indeed defeat the Borg threat as easily as a human may squash an ant (or easier as some might assert)....is there really a point to the question?

You can count the weapons of the TARDIS on the fingers of Darth Vader's biological hand. The TARDIS is very powerful, no doubt, but short of ramming it, there's no damage that it can do directly

Then you're going to have to provide some means or actions the Doctor is likely to employ against the Borg threat.

The entire point of this thread is actually The Doctor's wits and resourcefulness against the Borg, he merely has access to the afformentioned time/space-travel device.

More details would be appreciated. No one can make any type of predictions without sufficient data to work with. Something Frigid has already made clear.

Unless someone is going to provide some information such as exploitable vulnerabilities of the Tardis, or advantages the Borg may employ, the question won't get very far.

Irrelevant. The TARDIS is merely a means for the Doctor's resourcefulness, not a weapon. The Borg don't need to attack/destroy the TARDIS (is such a thing even possible?!) because it is not a weapon, it is an unarmed-yet-incredibly-resilient vehicle.

Considering the Borg vessel's primary target is Earth, their typical behavior will be to ignore anything not relevent to that goal. They'd respond to the Tardis if it made itself a threat, but given it has no weapons, I don't see that coming about.

And if the purpose of the thread in question isn't to actually debate the issue, but instead wank over how one side obliterates the other, I'd say the thread qualifies as spam.

No, it's because a few people misinterpret the TARDIS as a Warship, it's a lot of things, but a Warship it ain't.

So we can rule a direct attack from the Tardis. So what methods and actions will the Doctor likely employ to try and defeat the Borg? What does he know about the Borg? Will he make a critical error in judgement against an unknown foe? Will the Borg underestimate Dr. Who's resources?

And I'm skeptical on the time travel 'weapon' issue here. Time travel has always been considered a cop out in a comparison of this nature.

[Narsil]

What the Borg really need is to be redone by Doctor Who's writers. I'm so looking forward to what they do with the Cybermen.

I also think that can be said with most western sci-fi...

Ironic really...

Enterprise was said to be 'a good idea' by its creators and American producers (because they actually went and made it). And in the very same breath: they refuse the 2005 version of Doctor Who because they thought that it would fail outright. I suppose this is an example of Executive Stupidity, eh?

Doctor Who writers can make anything work. Hell, they'd have made Jar Jar Binks a freaking brilliant character.

However, this is somewhat off-topic... so we'll focus on the badassery of the Sonic Screwdriver

[Narsil]

Then you're going to have to provide some means or actions the Doctor is likely to employ against the Borg threat.

Reversing the polarity of the neutron flow? That tends to work a lot of the time.

More details would be appreciated. No one can make any type of predictions without sufficient data to work with. Something Frigid has already made clear.

TARDIS dematerializes, TARDIS rematerializes aboard the cube...

The Doctor uses his sonic screwdriver... but it's kind of vague as to what he'll actually do it.

Considering the Borg vessel's primary target is Earth, their typical behavior will be to ignore anything not relevent to that goal.

The Doctor is rather protective of earth... despite being in no-way related to the denizens thereof. Therefore: he makes himself relevant.

They'd respond to the Tardis if it made itself a threat, but given it has no weapons, I don't see that coming about.

Would you call a supremely advanced time-travel device materializing loudly aboard your vessel with a denizen armed with a sonic screwdriver (blew up a psychopathic christmas tree within seconds... amazingly).

So we can rule a direct attack from the Tardis. So what methods and actions will the Doctor likely employ to try and defeat the Borg?

If the borg employ neutron flows, they're kind of fucked.

What does he know about the Borg?

To say that he'd have knowledge of every major and influential milky-way race is a gross understatement. To say that he knows 'almost everything' would be a slight overstatement. He is extremely well versed in history, and has an eidetic memory.

Will he make a critical error in judgement against an unknown foe?

Well... not really, he's made about ten errors throughout his nine-hundred year career as a timetraveller...

Will the Borg underestimate Dr. Who's resources?

In a word: most likely. A sonic screwdriver can do a shitload of technobabbly-wierdy shit. But it works infinitely better than Trek technobabble because his methods are never 'one-shot wonders'.

And I'm skeptical on the time travel 'weapon' issue here. Time travel has always been considered a cop out in a comparison of this nature.

If all goes to plan, he probably won't need it. It's a last-ditch-in-emergencies-only weapon at best which will force him to regenerate if he uses it.

[Cynical Cat]

The Doctor, although he rarely resorts to it, is an extremely formidable hand to hand combatent. I would much rather go up against Worf than him.

As Doctor Who is a time travel show, it isn't a cop out to bring it up. Some episodes have featured the Doctor and his companions switching time periods and the altered events in one time period affecting results in the others. It's like saying the Borg can't assimilate anyone or Star Trek use warp drive. It's fundemental to the show.

The Doctor's knowledge base is literally superhuman. He is familiar with virtually every obscure alien species and its history. His sonic screwdriver (which is just one of its functions) is more like the swiss army knife of high tech tools. He can unlock doors, hack computer systems (certainly including lousy Star Trek computer security) and blow up consols with it. It's really nifty.

The Borg won't even be able to scan the TARDIS (snazzy defences, its designed to blend in.). They certainly won't pay attention to it if it materializes inside a cube. As mentioned it can quickly traverse time and space and function as a deus ex machina. The last is a little annoying, but it is as canon as Janeway's promotion to admiral.

As for the Borg and underestimating the Doctor, well of course they will. They underestimate everybody. They send one cube against Earth, they ignore boarders, and don't pack (or use) ranged weapons. Added to this, the Doctor appears harmless. We are talking about a man who approaches armed guards with lines like "Excuse me, can you help me? I'm a spy." and sucker punches them. The Doctor is almost always underestimated, except by his long time foes, who have had their plans to conquer the galaxy foiled by him. It is unlikely the Borg will understand the severity of their predicament until the damage is done.

Now the next encounter they have with him, that would be interesting.

[Robert Walper]

Then it sounds like the Dr. Who character isn't any more logically debateble than throwing anime at the Borg.