Just to confirm: if DarkSilver, as the board owner, decide to keep the Pentagram anyway, he has every right to do so, hasn't him?
As he is the board owner, yes. However there would be a number of dissenters and eventually he would either have to ban them or give in and give them different symbols.
False dilema. They can simply leave or not join up in the first place. All members of this board are guests of Dark Silver and related owners. They have accounts at his discretion, not theirs.
If I tell someone not to smoke in my house, or take off their shoes, they do so or they get the fuck out. And if they dared to whine about how I decorate my house (or change said decorations) while guests on my property, they got another thing coming.
However there are a few problems with this analogy. First is that this forum started out with a non-religious symbol. Then the issue was given to the public on what it should be changed to. The administration gave up their right to go "This is my way, get used to it or get lost." as soon as they did that.
As soon as "We're asking you" was written they lost a good amount of that power. And as Cynical stated, under normal conditions yeah, they would have the right to do it. But seeing as we're guests here and a number of others have stated their disaproval it would be neither nice nore smart.
It's up to the owner to be nice. Smart is argueable, as there's absolutely nothing wrong with a pentagram symbol except in people's minds. But those are the exact same people who create uproars about exposed breasts or an exposed woman's face. They have no logical or reasonable justification for their offense.
What utter tripe. By this same logic I could state that there is nothing wrong with the crucifix, the inquisition, and the holocaust. And a logical and reasonable justification has been stated as to why pentagrams should not be used (Other than the storm that has come out of the suggestion) in that they are an inherently religious symbol on a non-denominational board.
Robert Walper wrote:Your replies are based upon the premise "nice=right".
My arguement was not dependent upon that premise, but I'll drop the issue anyhow.
No, your argument is based upon nothing but sophist bullshit.
"Nothing in biology makes sense except in the light of evolution."
- Theodosius Dobzhansky
There is no word harsh enough for this. No verbal edge sharp and cold enough to set forth the flaying needed. English is to young and the elder languages of the earth beyond me. ~Frigid
The Holocaust was an Amazing Logistical Achievement~Havoc
Robert Walper wrote:Your replies are based upon the premise "nice=right".
My arguement was not dependent upon that premise, but I'll drop the issue anyhow.
No, my replies are based off of personal rights and the effects of diluting power.
None of which apply to this board. In regards to anyone's participation on the board which is entirely optional, you only get what rights, freedoms and power granted to you. Sorry if you don't like that, but that's the way it is.
Robert Walper wrote:Your replies are based upon the premise "nice=right".
My arguement was not dependent upon that premise, but I'll drop the issue anyhow.
No, your argument is based upon nothing but sophist bullshit.
Displaying a pentagram is not morally wrong, CT. The board owners are free to display whatever they want. Get over it.
Thanks for the stawman Walper. That is not what I am arguing. Displaying a pentagram is not what is at issue here. Replacing a neutral symbol with a non-neutral one, without alternatives, is what is at issue. And the moment the admins opened the issue up for discussion, they opened up the prospect of discussing the utility of the propositions.
Your argument, or lack thereof, falls flat on its face in light of that.
If you refuse to discuss what is at issue, get out of the damn thread.
"Nothing in biology makes sense except in the light of evolution."
- Theodosius Dobzhansky
There is no word harsh enough for this. No verbal edge sharp and cold enough to set forth the flaying needed. English is to young and the elder languages of the earth beyond me. ~Frigid
The Holocaust was an Amazing Logistical Achievement~Havoc
Robert Walper wrote:Your replies are based upon the premise "nice=right".
My arguement was not dependent upon that premise, but I'll drop the issue anyhow.
No, my replies are based off of personal rights and the effects of diluting power.
None of which apply to this board. In regards to anyone's participation on the board which is entirely optional, you only get what rights, freedoms and power granted to you. Sorry if you don't like that, but that's the way it is.
Ah, bullshit oldstyle monarchies...
Right from the thread that started this wrote:We're asking you, clever artists of the board, to offer something cool.
Huh, looks like my arguments about the dilution of power were right on target. How about that. Plus the very fact that you, CT, and I are mods is ANOTHER example of the dilution of power and it is a time tested fact that with the dilution of power comes a weaker monarch. Also is the fact that we are given the rights, freedoms, and power granted to us by us due to the simple fact that the administration wants this board to survive and therefore must cater to it's populace lest we all pack up and leave.
Robert Walper wrote:Your replies are based upon the premise "nice=right".
My arguement was not dependent upon that premise, but I'll drop the issue anyhow.
No, my replies are based off of personal rights and the effects of diluting power.
None of which apply to this board. In regards to anyone's participation on the board which is entirely optional, you only get what rights, freedoms and power granted to you. Sorry if you don't like that, but that's the way it is.
WHich has no fucking bearing on the UTILITY of the admins decision, which is what is at issue. No one is denying that the admin are capable of doing what they will, the issue is whether or not a particular decision is good, wise, or advisable.
Now argue what is at issue, or shut the fuck up.
"Nothing in biology makes sense except in the light of evolution."
- Theodosius Dobzhansky
There is no word harsh enough for this. No verbal edge sharp and cold enough to set forth the flaying needed. English is to young and the elder languages of the earth beyond me. ~Frigid
The Holocaust was an Amazing Logistical Achievement~Havoc
What a bunch of fucking semi-nihislitic BS Walper.
As a board which has its eyes on having more members join it, and not all primarily of the makeup of "I don't care" philsophy that you seem to love, its against the boards interest to have a pentagram.
There, here, a logical NON moralistic reason.
Can this please die into a discussion into the submissions themselves?
Dorsk 81: this is why I support the separation of Aces eyebrow's, something that ugly should never be joined
Mayabird:You see what this place does to us? It's like how Eskimos have their 16 names for snow. We have to precisely define what shafting we're receiving.
"Do we think Israel would be nuts enough to go back into Lebanon with Olmert still in power and calling the shots? They could hook Sharon up to a heart monitor and interpret the blips and bleeps as "yes" and "no" and do better than that, both strategically and emotionally."
Dorsk 81: this is why I support the separation of Aces eyebrow's, something that ugly should never be joined
Mayabird:You see what this place does to us? It's like how Eskimos have their 16 names for snow. We have to precisely define what shafting we're receiving.
"Do we think Israel would be nuts enough to go back into Lebanon with Olmert still in power and calling the shots? They could hook Sharon up to a heart monitor and interpret the blips and bleeps as "yes" and "no" and do better than that, both strategically and emotionally."
Because it's something that has been used to murder millions of people... and I abhor its existance because of its use. Weapons of Mass destruction are a terrible thing which shouldn't have ever been created, and even indirect advocation thereof is something that I despise.
Because it's something that has been used to murder millions of people... and I abhor its existance because of its use. Weapons of Mass destruction are a terrible thing which shouldn't have ever been created, and even indirect advocation thereof is something that I despise.
If you are a nihlist, why do you care?
"Nothing in biology makes sense except in the light of evolution."
- Theodosius Dobzhansky
There is no word harsh enough for this. No verbal edge sharp and cold enough to set forth the flaying needed. English is to young and the elder languages of the earth beyond me. ~Frigid
The Holocaust was an Amazing Logistical Achievement~Havoc
Dakarne wrote:
Because it's something that has been used to murder millions of people...
I hate to tell you but lots more people have been killed by swords and axes over the millenia, and I don't see you protesting those icons.
and I abhor its existance because of its use. Weapons of Mass destruction are a terrible thing which shouldn't have ever been created,
Despite the fact that there existance likely saved millions of lives in WW2 alone?
'I wonder how far the barometer sunk.'-'All der way. Trust me on dis.'
'Go ahead. Bake my quiche'.
'Undead or alive, you're coming with me.'
'Detritus?'-'Yessir?'-'Never go to Klatch'.-'Yessir.'
'Many fine old manuscripts in that place, I believe. Without price, I'm told.'-'Yes, sir. Certainly worthless, sir.'-'Is it possible you misunderstood what I just said, Commander?'
'Can't sing, can't dance, can handle a sword a little'
'Run away, and live to run away another day'-The Rincewind principle
'Hello, inner child. I'm the inner babysitter.'
Batman wrote:I hate to tell you but lots more people have been killed by swords and axes over the millenia, and I don't see you protesting those icons.
How many single swords have killed millions of people within a moments? And swords have a much less murderous use as well... what non-lethal use does a freaking NUKE have?!
Batman wrote:Despite the fact that there existance likely saved millions of lives in WW2 alone?
I'll admit that... but what purpose does a high-energy explosive serve in modern life, and why must we always parade them around as something to be proud of?
Comrade Tortoise wrote:If you are a nihlist, why do you care?
Batman wrote:I hate to tell you but lots more people have been killed by swords and axes over the millenia, and I don't see you protesting those icons.
How many single swords have killed millions of people within a moments?
Why does it matter if they were killed all at once or piecemeal? They were still murdered.
And swords have a much less murderous use as well... what non-lethal use does a freaking NUKE have?!
The same ones every other explosive has, only on a much larger scale.
That we currently don't have requirements on that scale is besides the point.
And sorry, no. Except for ceremonial purposes a sword does not have a less murderous use. It can be pressed into service for some but it is designed to do one thing and one thing only.
Batman wrote:Despite the fact that there existance likely saved millions of lives in WW2 alone?
I'll admit that... but what purpose does a high-energy explosive serve in modern life, and why must we always parade them around as something to be proud of?
Using that icon isn't exactly 'parading them around like something we're proud of'.
Hey, if you don't like the mushroom cloud icon and don't want to use it that's fine with me. I doubt I will because I think it quite simply doesn't look good. I just don't agree with your reasoning.
'I wonder how far the barometer sunk.'-'All der way. Trust me on dis.'
'Go ahead. Bake my quiche'.
'Undead or alive, you're coming with me.'
'Detritus?'-'Yessir?'-'Never go to Klatch'.-'Yessir.'
'Many fine old manuscripts in that place, I believe. Without price, I'm told.'-'Yes, sir. Certainly worthless, sir.'-'Is it possible you misunderstood what I just said, Commander?'
'Can't sing, can't dance, can handle a sword a little'
'Run away, and live to run away another day'-The Rincewind principle
'Hello, inner child. I'm the inner babysitter.'
And sorry, no. Except for ceremonial purposes a sword does not have a less murderous use. It can be pressed into service for some but it is designed to do one thing and one thing only.
Define 'cerimonial'...
The last time I checked, fencing was nonlethal and was an olympic event.
I haved to admit I can only shake my head and laugh at arguement the pentagram is a 'bad' idea. No other justification than it has 'negative religious' implications, and we must tip toe on that issue for fear of losing or offending potential members.
Yet a mushroom cloud which represents terror, death and destruction on a massive scale and has been used in that exact fashion is ok. Swords, created for the purpose of violence and killing other human beings, is also not objected to. An axe, which I also submitted, hasn't been objected to even though I can recall many historical events where it was not used for decoration. The book icon I submitted I can easily be interpretated as a bible, yet no objections to that either from athiests or other religions.
And interestingly, I did a quick search on the history of the Pentagram, and apparently it's an inverted one that only in recent history has negative connections. Otherwise it's had a very noteable and non-negative implication in human history.
Dakarne wrote:And swords have a much less murderous use as well... what non-lethal use does a freaking NUKE have?!
Clean, reliable energy source. Physics research. Deterant to war.
I completely agree that any nuclear reference is perfectly fine, since it has so many positive attributes. The radiation symbol or mushroom cloud looks cute in my opinion. Such things in the real world are only as bad as the users who employ them.
Of course, that's the same as the pentagram symbol, but apparently that's 'different'.
Robert Walper wrote:I completely agree that any nuclear reference is perfectly fine, since it has so many positive attributes. The radiation symbol or mushroom cloud looks cute in my opinion. Such things in the real world are only as bad as the users who employ them.
Of course, that's the same as the pentagram symbol, but apparently that's 'different'.
Yes. While the issue on the board owner's right regarding to the use (or disuse) of Pentagram symbol has been resolved, I still fail to understand why there are still people who strongly oppose the symbol. As far as I can see, it is nothing more than harmless, pop-culture icon.
Just FYI, Ultima XIII uses Pentagram on its box, and the game still sold.
EDIT: I'm also talking in context of comparison to nuke symbol. Nuke DOES kill people, but some people does not object against the symbol. In fact, myself does not object either because I'm taking it in humorous tone (like when I'm playing Duke Nukem 3D computer game, or nuking fellow board members in a TGOD, for instance). However, Pentagram does NOT kill people. So why is Pentagram more 'objectionable' than nuke?
So be it. If saying "NO" means being alone, then to hell with love, with romance, with marriage, and all the shit life keeps pumping at me. I'll walk alone, but with freedom and a healed pride.
Robert Walper wrote:I completely agree that any nuclear reference is perfectly fine, since it has so many positive attributes. The radiation symbol or mushroom cloud looks cute in my opinion. Such things in the real world are only as bad as the users who employ them.
Of course, that's the same as the pentagram symbol, but apparently that's 'different'.
Yes. While the issue on the board owner's right regarding to the use (or disuse) of Pentagram symbol has been resolved, I still fail to understand why there are still people who strongly oppose the symbol. As far as I can see, it is nothing more than harmless, pop-culture icon.
Just FYI, Ultima XIII uses Pentagram on its box, and the game still sold.
EDIT: I'm also talking in context of comparison to nuke symbol. Nuke DOES kill people, but some people does not object against the symbol. In fact, myself does not object either because I'm taking it in humorous tone (like when I'm playing Duke Nukem 3D computer game, or nuking fellow board members in a TGOD, for instance). However, Pentagram does NOT kill people. So why is Pentagram more 'objectionable' than nuke?
Religious considerations, plain and simple. They do not have to be logical or reasonable, they simply have to be brought up. And the rational people out there are still vastly outnumbered by the religious ones, thus anyone arguing there's "nothing wrong with the pentagram symbol" is "wrong" because the larger group can outshout the smaller one.
That's my take on the issue at any rate, since I haven't seen a single rational arguement against it.
Robert Walper wrote:Religious considerations, plain and simple. They do not have to be logical or reasonable, they simply have to be brought up. And the rational people out there are still vastly outnumbered by the religious ones, thus anyone arguing there's "nothing wrong with the pentagram symbol" is "wrong" because the larger group can outshout the smaller one.
That's my take on the issue at any rate, since I haven't seen a single rational arguement against it.
So Satanism is more 'objectionable' than killing a large number of people, despite Satanism is more a pop-culture phenomenon while Nagasaki and Hiroshima were real?
EDIT: and that ignoring the fact that Pentagram is not always necessarily associated with Satanism. IIRC, before Christianity, it was a symbol of Earth-related harmony or something.
So be it. If saying "NO" means being alone, then to hell with love, with romance, with marriage, and all the shit life keeps pumping at me. I'll walk alone, but with freedom and a healed pride.
:thumbsup