TOS Federation vs Minbari

[Cynical Cat]

1) Evidence of Minbari PD hitting anything besides Earthforce fighters.

2) "Elaan" again. Several seconds to reach 70K kilometers.

3) They didn't show the BoP in the same frame. Closing speed is still at warp.

4) Any evidence of BVR B5 fighting? I don't recall any. Even so, establish that is equal to Trek ranges in 10s of thousand of km.

5) Memory Alpha site also lists the scene in TMP as impulse at .8C. Does anyone know the reliability of that site?

Additional high Impulse: Wrath of Khan. Pursuit scene. Top view from Regulas shows the damaged ships quickly circling the planetoid and the Enterprise is able to reach the Mutari Nebula in a few minutes, which must be some distance from the planetoid because we don't see it any shots of planetoid.

6) Right. FTL torps are slower in long range combat than when fired in a funeral after they have been stuffed with a 6' tall vulcan. Jesus Christ, do you think any of this through or are you a rabid fiver?

[SirNitram]

Which TMP scene? I recall Timothy Jones(THUNDERCRASH) demanding a scene of them exiting the system was at impulse, despite the observed speed requiring warp.

[Cynical Cat]

Which TMP scene? I recall Timothy Jones(THUNDERCRASH) demanding a scene of them exiting the system was at impulse, despite the observed speed requiring warp.

The scene where they leave the system, run up at high impulse, and then kick in the warp drive and we have the wormhole and asteroid blasting scene.

If this scene has been subjected to analysis (say in the long running versus battles that I wasn't a part of), by all means bring up the results.

[The Silence and I]

Some more evidence of both high yield and range for TOS photon torpedoes may be found in "The Changeling" season 2. Nomad, a little over 1 meter long, is successfully targeted and hit by a photon torpedo at a range of 40,000 km. The resulting blast (only from the torpedo--Nomad was not damaged) hurt the eyes of the entire bridge crew through the viewer, and comments were made indicating they felt the target could not have possibly survived (of course, it did). It is also worth noting the Enterprise shields shugged off several of Nomad's attacks, rated as worth 90 torpedoes each. Scotty was channeling warp power to the shields at the time as I recall.

Flight time was brief, on the order of a handful of seconds.*

We know from "Hero Worship" TNG (among other TOS sources and indirect observation of DS9) that warp power can vastly improve shield power, although at a maneuvering cost. But this event suggests another thing: TOS shields can handle extremely large, transient power levels without damage proportional to lesser, but sustained or repeated, power levels. In other words, the shields pay a cost in durability with each hit and for each unit time of sustained fire, but total dissipation has a larger limit. This allows both the fantastic shield strength required to survive a fraction of Nomad's attack and the lesser energies used to damage the Enterprise in other situations.


IMO I'd be placing greater emphasis on fleet numbers and system defensibility than individual ship strengths; I'd say a Constitution and anything in its league would curb stomp any Mimbari cruiser.

**Assuming linear acceleration, and 5 seconds of flight time, 3.2e6 m/s^2 acceleration will get the torpedo accross that distance. That gives a final speed of 1.6e7 m/s, although K.E. is most likely not so large as this indicates, thanks to mass lightening technology anything with warp coils of some nature may potentially carry. Their energy signiture ain't small, but they are most definately fast. Evidence the Minbari can hit such a target?

Remember folks, this is TOS, not movies, not TNG, not DS9 or *shudder* VOY or ENT. In TOS a slow torpedo is a contradiction in terms; there will be no lazy torpedoes waltzing accross a handful of km, combat ranges are in the thousands or tens of thousands, and starships can be detected at parsec range (but not targetted). While Warp Straffing has been disproven, warp power is used to enhance maneuverability in some way. Maneuverability will be high, tactical ranges large, the weaponry powerful enough to damage, and their own defense able to handle repeated hits most likely, especially given the large flight time of any ranged weaponry.

I am quite serious when I say this: Unless casual Minbari acceleration makes the EA look like their ships have delusions of being immoble stations then TOS starships will flatly and easily outmaneuver them. That means they dictate range, that means many torpedoes will begin to test the PD systems of the Minbari without fear of retaliation (unless there is evidence for BVR firing of the order needed here?).

[Batman]

1) Evidence of Minbari PD hitting anything besides Earthforce fighters.

Evidence of PTs being more agile than Earthforce fighters?

2) "Elaan" again. Several seconds to reach 70K kilometers.

Okay, conceeded. How hard was the Warbird maneuvring?

3) They didn't show the BoP in the same frame. Closing speed is still at warp.

If you couldn't see them in the same frame what do you base your closing speed calculations on? Not that a feat achieved in TNG is particularly relevant to a discussion of TOS. Nor does that require the torps to be FTL even if it were true.

4) Any evidence of BVR B5 fighting? I don't recall any.

Let me jog your memory then. ItB, Severed Dreams, No Surrender No Retreat, that stupid 3rd season episode with the alien probe, and that's just off the top of my head.

Even so, establish that is equal to Trek ranges in 10s of thousand of km.

That stupid probe episode again and possibly No Surrender No Retreat (though the latter is debatable).

5) Memory Alpha site also lists the scene in TMP as impulse at .8C. Does anyone know the reliability of that site?

As that site is not canon who cares? The movie says neither .8c nor impulse.

Additional high Impulse: Wrath of Khan. Pursuit scene. Top view from Regulas shows the damaged ships quickly circling the planetoid

which requires no engines whatsoever and was on a tactical display obviously not to scale and in complete contradiction of the outside shots moments before which showd both ships not moving whatsoever relative to the planetoid,

and the Enterprise is able to reach the Mutari Nebula in a few minutes, which must be some distance from the planetoid because we don't see it any shots of planetoid.

'Must' and 'some'. Yeah that's really something to work with.

6) Right. FTL torps are slower in long range combat than when fired in a funeral after they have been stuffed with a 6' tall vulcan. Jesus Christ, do you think any of this through or are you a rabid fiver?

Ido. FTL torps are TNG, are only FTL when launched FTL, and are STILL STL relative to the involved parties.
The funeral torpedo was on a straight-line course for a target that wasn't going anywhere. It could happily go ballistic once it ran out of fuel which is something it can't afford to do in combat and still hope to hit a moving target.

[Batman]

Some more evidence of both high yield and range for TOS photon torpedoes may be found in "The Changeling" season 2. Nomad, a little over 1 meter long, is successfully targeted and hit by a photon torpedo at a range of 40,000 km.

Was he doing any maneuvring?

The resulting blast (only from the torpedo--Nomad was not damaged) hurt the eyes of the entire bridge crew through the viewer, and comments were made indicating they felt the target could not have possibly survived (of course, it did).

Which doesn't say beans about the yield of the torpedo I'm afraid.

It is also worth noting the Enterprise shields shugged off several of Nomad's attacks, rated as worth 90 torpedoes each. Scotty was channeling warp power to the shields at the time as I recall.

A pity he didn't remember that trick in TUC where her successor was badly mangled by a single figure number of torpedoes from Chang's BOP.

Flight time was brief, on the order of a handful of seconds.*
We know from "Hero Worship" TNG (among other TOS sources and indirect observation of DS9) that warp power can vastly improve shield power, although at a maneuvering cost. But this event suggests another thing: TOS shields can handle extremely large, transient power levels without damage proportional to lesser, but sustained or repeated, power levels. In other words, the shields pay a cost in durability with each hit and for each unit time of sustained fire, but total dissipation has a larger limit. This allows both the fantastic shield strength required to survive a fraction of Nomad's attack and the lesser energies used to damage the Enterprise in other situations.

Nope. Doesn't work. It could work if they shrugged off one attack with the shields collapsing immedialtely thereafter put them standing up to several of them flies in the face of single torpedo hits wearing the shields down quickly in virtually all other combat situations unless nobody remembers the Warp power trick, which doesn't come at a maneuverability cost STL unless Warp power is needed for the impulse engines.

IMO I'd be placing greater emphasis on fleet numbers and system defensibility than individual ship strengths; I'd say a Constitution and anything in its league would curb stomp any Mimbari cruiser.

Based on what? Phaser firepower is in the low double-figure TW range which is matched by Minbari Nials, even assuming 500KT torpedoes duplicating the Black Star feat already requires 16 torpedoes which are usually slow as molasses and don't maneuver worth a damn, and I have yet to see evidence for the vaunted Impulse accelleration advantage.

**Assuming linear acceleration, and 5 seconds of flight time, 3.2e6 m/s^2 acceleration will get the torpedo accross that distance. That gives a final speed of 1.6e7 m/s, although K.E. is most likely not so large as this indicates, thanks to mass lightening technology anything with warp coils of some nature may potentially carry. Their energy signiture ain't small, but they are most definately fast. Evidence the Minbari can hit such a target?

Evidence the torpedo actually goes that fast in a regular combat situation?
Virtually all Trek combat exhibits the painfully slow torpedoes we're familiar with which indicates to me that something was different in the Elaan of Troius and Nomad incidents, allowing the PT to use its full potential.
Not that hitting something going 16,000kps in a straight line is all that difficult.

Remember folks, this is TOS, not movies,

So because the OP says 'TOS' instead of 'TOS era' you get to ignore all evidence that makes Trek look bad. Gotcha.

While Warp Straffing has been disproven, warp power is used to enhance maneuverability in some way. Maneuverability will be high, tactical ranges large, the weaponry powerful enough to damage,

If you're going by pure TOS what do you base weapon yields on?

and their own defense able to handle repeated hits most likely, especially given the large flight time of any ranged weaponry.

Large flight time? WTF?

I am quite serious when I say this: Unless casual Minbari acceleration makes the EA look like their ships have delusions of being immoble stations then TOS starships will flatly and easily outmaneuver them.

Yes, I hear that a lot. What I never see is any evidence for it. Trek impulse accelleration is...?

That means they dictate range, that means many torpedoes will begin to test the PD systems of the Minbari without fear of retaliation (unless there is evidence for BVR firing of the order needed here?).

ALL B5 forces regularly fight BVR. ItB, Severed Dreams, No Surrender No Retreat, that stupid 3rd season episode with the alien probe...
And that once more presumes a great accelleration advantage for impulse. Impulse accelleration is...?

[SirNitram]

Which TMP scene? I recall Timothy Jones(THUNDERCRASH) demanding a scene of them exiting the system was at impulse, despite the observed speed requiring warp.

The scene where they leave the system, run up at high impulse, and then kick in the warp drive and we have the wormhole and asteroid blasting scene.

If this scene has been subjected to analysis (say in the long running versus battles that I wasn't a part of), by all means bring up the results.

Link To The TJ FAQ

It's a very simple rundown: Pluto/Neptune is light hours away. For the scene to be interperated with no time-compression, they have to be at Warp, or even at .9 repeating c it'd take hours.

[Cynical Cat]

Thanks Nitram. So the TMP gets tossed.

Still leaves the Wrath of Khan though.

Batman, stop fucking lying about photon torps. The Black Star was wrecked by a 2 megaton proximity blast at a considerable distance. Only a tiny fraction of that energy hit the Black Star. A 500 kt photon torp (a reasonable mid range figure) direct hit will wreck a war cruiser.

Long range for photon torps has been demonstrated as has reasonable accuracy, which is consistently demonstrated in TOS. B5 warships don't exactly turn on a dime either (which is one of the better aspects of the show, changing delta V with low acceleration isn't quick).

Show Minbari point defence hitting something other than human fighters. The Planet Killer missle that targeted Sheriden's White Star wasn't taken out with point defence, it was taken out by a Sharlin maneuvering in front of it and physically blocking it. Hardly uber PD.

I have to review those B5 episodes before I can comment accurately on them and the BVR combat.

[Batman]

Thanks Nitram. So the TMP gets tossed.
Still leaves the Wrath of Khan though.

Which is unquantifiable like nobody's business.

Batman, stop fucking lying about photon torps.

What lie would that be?

The Black Star was wrecked by a 2 megaton proximity blast at a considerable distance.

Define 'considerable distance', please.

Only a tiny fraction of that energy hit the Black Star. A 500 kt photon torp (a reasonable mid range figure) direct hit will wreck a war cruiser.

500KT is moderately reasonable for TNG torpedoes. TOS PTs never displayed that kind yield.
And a direct hit will likely cripple a warcruiser, yes. All I've ever doubted was their ability to land that hit.

Long range for photon torps has been demonstrated as has reasonable accuracy, which is consistently demonstrated in TOS.

'Consistently' being two examples as opposed to countless ones for point-blank ranges, against targets that may or may not have been maneuvering worth shit.

B5 warships don't exactly turn on a dime either (which is one of the better aspects of the show, changing delta V with low acceleration isn't quick).

Actually some of them do but we're discussing warcruisers here which certainly don't.
The question remains what kind of maneuverability PTs can compensate for at 5K km ranges, if any, and wether or not warcruisers can match that.
Plus why they hardly ever use that range.

Show Minbari point defence hitting something other than human fighters.

Show a PT exhibiting agility in excess of that.

The Planet Killer missle that targeted Sheriden's White Star wasn't taken out with point defence, it was taken out by a Sharlin maneuvering in front of it and physically blocking it. Hardly uber PD.

You mean the one that was a noticeable fraction of the size of a warcruiser, built by a race advanced to the point were it took several YR capships working together to take out a single BattleCrab, AND inside the Shadow Death Cloud that had already been affecting YR ship systems?

[Hotfoot]

Just real quickly, the inverse square law means that any nuke that misses in space is going to lose power very rapidly over distance. That 2,000 kt from the nuke Sheridan used, well, it's going to drop off very rapidly. Assuming the nuke is measured as 2,000 kt at 1m, then at 2m, it is only 500kt, at 4m, it is 125kt, at 8m it is 31.25kt, and so on. If it's a kilometer off, well, we're talking about something more akin to a flashlight than a weapon.

Well, okay, it's a bit more than that:

2000 / (4 * pi * 1000^2) = 1.5915494309189533576888376337251e-4

Or 0.159 tons of TNT.

[The Silence and I]

Some more evidence of both high yield and range for TOS photon torpedoes may be found in "The Changeling" season 2. Nomad, a little over 1 meter long, is successfully targeted and hit by a photon torpedo at a range of 40,000 km.

Was he doing any maneuvring?

No.

The resulting blast (only from the torpedo--Nomad was not damaged) hurt the eyes of the entire bridge crew through the viewer, and comments were made indicating they felt the target could not have possibly survived (of course, it did).

Which doesn't say beans about the yield of the torpedo I'm afraid.

Correct. I included it for completeness, and to show that it is likely torpedoes are significantly more powerful than phasers. Whatever that power may be.

It is also worth noting the Enterprise shields shugged off several of Nomad's attacks, rated as worth 90 torpedoes each. Scotty was channeling warp power to the shields at the time as I recall.

A pity he didn't remember that trick in TUC where her successor was badly mangled by a single figure number of torpedoes from Chang's BOP.

I was under the impression movie era is separate from TOS era. I may be wrong.

Flight time was brief, on the order of a handful of seconds.*
We know from "Hero Worship" TNG (among other TOS sources and indirect observation of DS9) that warp power can vastly improve shield power, although at a maneuvering cost. But this event suggests another thing: TOS shields can handle extremely large, transient power levels without damage proportional to lesser, but sustained or repeated, power levels. In other words, the shields pay a cost in durability with each hit and for each unit time of sustained fire, but total dissipation has a larger limit. This allows both the fantastic shield strength required to survive a fraction of Nomad's attack and the lesser energies used to damage the Enterprise in other situations.

Nope. Doesn't work. It could work if they shrugged off one attack with the shields collapsing immedialtely thereafter put them standing up to several of them flies in the face of single torpedo hits wearing the shields down quickly in virtually all other combat situations unless nobody remembers the Warp power trick, which doesn't come at a maneuverability cost STL unless Warp power is needed for the impulse engines.

Warp power is needed for high impulse maneuverability. Elaan provides ample evidence: loose warp power and your SLT maneuverability cannot hold a candle to those ships with it.

IMO I'd be placing greater emphasis on fleet numbers and system defensibility than individual ship strengths; I'd say a Constitution and anything in its league would curb stomp any Mimbari cruiser.

Based on what? Phaser firepower is in the low double-figure TW range which is matched by Minbari Nials, even assuming 500KT torpedoes duplicating the Black Star feat already requires 16 torpedoes which are usually slow as molasses and don't maneuver worth a damn, and I have yet to see evidence for the vaunted Impulse accelleration advantage.

Cynical Cat has provided a good response for your torpdo problem. For maneuverability, I will run some basic figures for you later.

**Assuming linear acceleration, and 5 seconds of flight time, 3.2e6 m/s^2 acceleration will get the torpedo accross that distance. That gives a final speed of 1.6e7 m/s, although K.E. is most likely not so large as this indicates, thanks to mass lightening technology anything with warp coils of some nature may potentially carry. Their energy signiture ain't small, but they are most definately fast. Evidence the Minbari can hit such a target?

Evidence the torpedo actually goes that fast in a regular combat situation?
Virtually all Trek combat exhibits the painfully slow torpedoes we're familiar with which indicates to me that something was different in the Elaan of Troius and Nomad incidents, allowing the PT to use its full potential.
Not that hitting something going 16,000kps in a straight line is all that difficult.

Elaan of Troius has torpedoes moving with similar speed. Balance of Terror either has flaking phasers or torpedoes with similar speed to Elaan and The Changleing. Surely at least one of these counts as a regular combat situation? Or is your standard finer still?

Remember folks, this is TOS, not movies,

So because the OP says 'TOS' instead of 'TOS era' you get to ignore all evidence that makes Trek look bad. Gotcha.

Correct. Unless this OP does in fact include the movies, a point I am less certain of now.

I am quite serious when I say this: Unless casual Minbari acceleration makes the EA look like their ships have delusions of being immoble stations then TOS starships will flatly and easily outmaneuver them.

Yes, I hear that a lot. What I never see is any evidence for it. Trek impulse accelleration is...?

...hard to determine, but limits may be calculated. A gestalt observation serves for some, but it is your right to require numbers.

That means they dictate range, that means many torpedoes will begin to test the PD systems of the Minbari without fear of retaliation (unless there is evidence for BVR firing of the order needed here?).

ALL B5 forces regularly fight BVR. ItB, Severed Dreams, No Surrender No Retreat, that stupid 3rd season episode with the alien probe...
And that once more presumes a great accelleration advantage for impulse. Impulse accelleration is...?

I am aware of BVR combat, I am not aware of its magnitude. 400 km is BVR, but a full 2 orders of magnitude less than TOS BVR combat. See my point now?

I will get back to you with some numbers.

[Cynical Cat]

Lets see:

Huge claims about Minbari PD

No evidence, other than they can hit larger, single g accelerating Earthforce fighters.

Claims that Photon torpedoes are inaccurate:

Evidence of them being accurate of at tens of thousands of kilometers.

Claims of being unmaneuverability of photon torps:

Ignores Star Trek VI, instead compares them with far slower atmospheric missles.

Evidence of damaged Star Trek ships being able to rapidly orbit a planet and then reach a nebula not at all visible around the planetoid:

Evident sublight speed superiority over a race that operates on the same scale as single digit g operating humans is ignored.

As for the Black Star, babtech on the net has some very good images of the ship killing explosions as well as high end and mid range estimates. Neither favors massively tough warcruisers.

[Batman]

Lets see:
Huge claims about Minbari PD
No evidence, other than they can hit larger, single g accelerating Earthforce fighters.

Evidence for PTs beating that is two outlier episodes against potentially immobile targets vs countless examples of them being painfully slow

Claims that Photon torpedoes are inaccurate:
Evidence of them being accurate of at tens of thousands of kilometers.

Against potentially stationary targets,

Claims of being unmaneuverability of photon torps:

Ignores Star Trek VI,

were the torpedo does a series of lazy S-turns, with torpedo speed apparently being Mach 2 or so,

instead compares them with far slower atmospheric missles.

Which handily beat the on-screen maneuverability of PTs ,

Evidence of damaged Star Trek ships being able to rapidly orbit a planet

Which is never seen outside a clearly not to scale tactical diagram with the outside shots of the ships showing them sitting still,

and then reach a nebula not at all visible around the planetoid:

Which puts the nebula how far from the planet, if you please?
Not that we neccessarily ever see the entirery of the sky over the planetoid, of course.

Evident sublight speed superiority over a race that operates on the same scale as single digit g operating humans is ignored.

On account of no evidence for significantly higher impulse accelleration being provided.

As for the Black Star, babtech on the net has some very good images of the ship killing explosions as well as high end and mid range estimates. Neither favors massively tough warcruisers.

Where did I say they were massively tough? All I said it'd take quite a number of PTs do duplicate the feat, which is correct.

[Batman]

I was under the impression movie era is separate from TOS era. I may be wrong.

Depends on your approach. I'm so far working with official Trek canonicity which includes the movies. If this is to be about pure TOS period I'll just back out now.

unless nobody remembers the Warp power trick, which doesn't come at a maneuverability cost STL unless Warp power is needed for the impulse engines.

Warp power is needed for high impulse maneuverability. Elaan provides ample evidence: loose warp power and your SLT maneuverability cannot hold a candle to those ships with it.

Odd how we never see that again but oh well-would've still been handy in TUC where nobody did any moneuvering worth mentioning yet the very first torpedo hit on the E-A had damage bleed through the shields.

Elaan of Troius has torpedoes moving with similar speed. Balance of Terror either has flaking phasers or torpedoes with similar speed to Elaan and The Changleing. Surely at least one of these counts as a regular combat situation? Or is your standard finer still?

I'm mainly refferring to those situation where for whatever reasons they close to visual range to fight it out with maybe-kps torpedoes.
I realize the out-of-universe reason is so we can actually see them fight it out but unless we want to go with the ever-favorite Trek Character Stupidity (TM) approach again we have to find an in-universe explanation for those fantastically lower ranges and speeds.

Unless this OP does in fact include the movies, a point I am less certain of now.

The OP merely says 'TOS' which really could go either way. If it is to be 'pure' TOS I have no quarrel with that but as I said so far I'm going with the offical canon.

Yes, I hear that a lot. What I never see is any evidence for it. Trek impulse accelleration is...?

...hard to determine, but limits may be calculated. A gestalt observation serves for some, but it is your right to require numbers.

Have fun. Trek impulse speeds (where calculable in the first place) are all over the board.
For example, if I take Kirk's 'One quarter impulse' order from the Dock scene in TUC literally then a rough off-the-cuff guestimate puts full impulse at 8g. Maybe.
Obviously that's hogwash but until I see some numbers I don't see why I should accept a massive advantage for impulse over Minbari drives.

ALL B5 forces regularly fight BVR. ItB, Severed Dreams, No Surrender No Retreat, that stupid 3rd season episode with the alien probe...
And that once more presumes a great accelleration advantage for impulse. Impulse accelleration is...?

I am aware of BVR combat, I am not aware of its magnitude. 400 km is BVR, but a full 2 orders of magnitude less than TOS BVR combat. See my point now?

Range is hard to judge. We have one hard figure of 5000km range for a WhiteStar (which is still considerably less), one comment of '10,000 km to optimum firing range' which in itself tells us nothing but is a moderatly pointless comment to make if optimum firing range isn't at least somewhere thereabouts, and at least they fight BVR regularly while Trek does it once in a blue moon.

[frigidmagi]

I meant for this to be pre-movie TOS, but I am not opposed to including the movieverse.

[Narsil]

I meant for this to be pre-movie TOS, but I am not opposed to including the movieverse.

B5 loses instantly because of the sheer waves of badassery coming off of the Connie Refit. Even a god coveted its power (although we prefer to take that movie as being noncanon)!

From what I understand of B5, it's incredibly low-powered, where TOS Trek was incredibly high-powered (many thousands of c FTL speeds and the like) but it had declined in power rapidly by the time of TNG.

So... I say the TOS/Movie-Era Federation would win because it is in possession of a decent amount of firepower, and a nice big pair of testicles, rather than its de-balled descendents.

[The Silence and I]

I meant for this to be pre-movie TOS, but I am not opposed to including the movieverse.

Pre-movie and Movie TOS are very different animals, I'm afraid. Movie era has visual range fighting and slow torpedoes with idiotic TNG era shield bleedthrough and uninspired maneuvering. TOS (the S standing for Series) is almost always BVR and involves significant maneuvering in most battles that are not against some surface installation.

EDIT: I would like to amend that to specify LATE movie period. TMP was much more in keeping with the series than, say, TUDC.

****

Some more evidence (as I go through Season II): Journey to Babel--the Enterprise fires successfully on a target somewhat closer than 75,000 km with phasers. The target had been in range for several seconds while approaching at very high speed (It started out at high warp, out of phaser range, then decelerated as it approached. Chekov had a lock a little before it became sublight, much more than 75,000 km out, but Kirk had him hold fire to ensure a direct hit). This was an unusual combat situation, but in the other direction--the target's extreme speed and maneuverability so cautioned them that they waited for it to come relatively close because they had been unable to hit it at full range (it was literally running circles around them at high warp, hitting warp 10 at points). Torpedoes were used during the battle, and they moved with the same extreme velocity and acceleration, but the target was too fast for them (it was too fast for phasers too). So: Elaan, The Changling, Balance of Terror, Journey to Babel; all have very large ranges and high accelerations for torpedoes. In every case except The Changling the target was maneuvering in some fashion and every case involves combat ranges on a similar order of magnitude. There may be more, I have only gone through some of the series so far. We are not talking about TNG or DS9 here, deal.

****

Since I have constrained myself to TOS so far, it has been hard to find a good example for impulse, but I am still looking. If nothing else though, starships don't maneuver around such distances quickly in combat without high acceleration curves--that would be the gestalt coming into play--although I realize that is not a number so much as a general kind of 'it was large I tell ya!' kind of thing.

[JEAP]

Are there hyperspace navigational beacons in Federation space when this fight breaks out? The Minbari are going to be severly constrained in what operations they can mount in opening skrimishes of this fight if there are not. I'd probably give a month, maybe three on the outside, before they can really operate freely in Federation space.

There is also how navigable jumpspace is in the Federation, but that is impossible to quantify without having this appear in an episode of either series.

[frigidmagi]

I am assuming that jumpspace exist within Federation Space, I am also assuming that the Minbari having been tooling around in Hyper for over a thousand years can figure out ways of flying without the Hyperspace beacons, especially since we know there are exploaration efforts in Bab 5.

[JEAP]

It was just this little blurb from "War of Retribution: Atlas of the Narn-Centauri War" by Robert Glass:

The Narn advance continued in the face of stiffening Centauri resistance. Raghesh and Beta 3 fell in 2 weeks of fighting with higher than expected losses for both sides as additional Battle Group forces were returned to service. The Centauri reinforced Immolan, Batain and Courtor. The Narn secured Jux Prime and Polgath, and the Narn deactivated the Jump Beacon route between Jux Prime and Quadrant 17 to slow any counterattack. The Corillans attacked Quadrant 17, a move expected by neither the Narns nor the Centauri. The attack was easily defeated, though this gave the Centauri another enemy to face. A Narn assault on Coutor is still under way after a week of fighting, but is not showing signs of success.

I'm quoting from here, but that should be almost verbatim from the book.

It doesn't matter, it can just be said that the First Ones installed the network and the Younger Races just do maintenance.

[The Silence and I]

Some rough numbers for impulse acceleration:

Distance from zone of darkness, Mr. Kyle?
100,000 kilometers, sir.
Ahead slow.
Impulse power off***.
Aye, aye, sir.
Transmission to Starfleet complete, sir.
Very good.
Time, Mr. Chekov.
Penetration of the zone in one minute, seven seconds, sir.

*I'm listening to the episode now, Kirk says "only," not off.

They had been holding position studying the funky shrowd thing, and Kirk decides to investigate. So they approach slowly, on only impulse power (it is important to recall that in this period warp power is used during sublight as well as FTL; if they really wanted to move faster they could have A) used more impulse power, B) used more impulse power and added warp power as well). So... [acceleration = (2*distance)/time^2] so accel = (2e8m)/(67sec)^2 = 44,553 m/s^2, or roughly 4500 gravities. It is emphasized that this is most definately far below their full capabilities.

This fits with the gestalt we get when considering starships that do battle at and maneuver accross such ranges with regularity.

I also found the previous episode, 'Obsession' to be funny when Chekov dispairs that 0.04 lightyears is too far for phasers. Not really useful for anything, it just seems rediculous that he would even think of phasers crossing 3.8e11 km Of course, it was Chekov... and Eden was just outside Moscow....

[frigidmagi]

The Narn secured Jux Prime and Polgath, and the Narn deactivated the Jump Beacon route between Jux Prime and Quadrant 17 to slow any counterattack.

Slow, not stop. To me this implies that they can go through hyperspace without beacons, it's just damn difficult to tell where you are.

Otherwise turning off the beacon would stop any attack cold.