Stormtrooper Armor

[JEAP]

How does Stoormtrooper really perform? There seem to be several inistances of super armor (spear of doom from YJK and Tattooine Ghost where the Tusken Raiders had to target soft spots) and cases where a bedpan would likely be better protection (Ooryl punching through the back of the helmet in Rogue Squadron and Empire Issue 16 to 18 which is another spear incident, but this time they are effective) for the trooper.

What's your take on this hard question?

[The Cleric]

It's proven, in most cases, to be very strong in the armor sections.

And we have no hard numbers as to Gand strength, other than they are strong than humans.

[SirNitram]

The spear-chucking kind of cements the armoured sections as able to take everything modern up to a grenade launcher. And aiming well enough to reliably hit the glove would be a pain in the ass.

[The Cleric]

The spear-chucking kind of cements the armoured sections as able to take everything modern up to a grenade launcher. And aiming well enough to reliably hit the glove would be a pain in the ass.

How well would shrapnel/frag grenades work against Stormies? You'd figure that at least some of the flying metal would hit the black pieces, and the concussion has gotta rattle one around.

[frigidmagi]

I would think a frag grenade would be good for causing injury to Stormies but if their armor is as strong as Nitram and company are saying then it won't kill many outright expect through some good luck.

A 60 millimeter motor shell on the other hand...

[Batman]

How well would shrapnel/frag grenades work against Stormies? You'd figure that at least some of the flying metal would hit the black pieces, and the concussion has gotta rattle one around.

Depends on the size of the grenade I'd say, and on how close you can get it.
Hand grenade no way and the concussion isn't going to be much anyway, but as frigid said mortars or actual artillery might be a different matter.

[SirNitram]

The spear-chucking kind of cements the armoured sections as able to take everything modern up to a grenade launcher. And aiming well enough to reliably hit the glove would be a pain in the ass.

How well would shrapnel/frag grenades work against Stormies? You'd figure that at least some of the flying metal would hit the black pieces, and the concussion has gotta rattle one around.

It'd be a matter of luck with the fragmentation. Certainly they'd be magnitudes less effective than against modern troops; you'd get those closest to the blast, the rest probably not seriously harmed.

And the sheer concussion will rattle them, but they'll get back up.

And yes, a 60mm mortar round is just the thing.

[Hedgecore]

In the movies, though, they didn't seem to be such hot stuff. A dinky little blaster seems to go right through. And in the Star Wars universe, everyone has a blaster at the least.

[Batman]

In the movies, though, they didn't seem to be such hot stuff. A dinky little blaster seems to go right through. And in the Star Wars universe, everyone has a blaster at the least.

Yeah, because the imperial military, a band of militant freedom fighters and the criminal underworld are really representative of the general population.
Even if the stuff were completely useless against blasters (which it isn't) the enhanced vision and NBC protection make stormie armor worthwhile.

[SirNitram]

In the movies, though, they didn't seem to be such hot stuff. A dinky little blaster seems to go right through. And in the Star Wars universe, everyone has a blaster at the least.

Broadly, the armour means that nothing primitive will take you down, and that it needs to be a solid hit.

Folks have stopped and looked at some incidents with unarmoured folks getting hit by blasters. In the Death Star, an officer is missed entirely.. The shot hits the wall behind him.. And he tips over forward, killed from the energy release. Leia's burn in ROTJ? The shot is seen impacting the wall she's by.

Blasters kill on direct hits. But, much like modern body armour tries to, Stormtrooper armour makes it so you must get that direct hit.

[Batman]

Blasters kill on direct hits. But, much like modern body armour tries to, Stormtrooper armour makes it so you must get that direct hit.

Plus, that's assuming all those direct hits ARE kills instead of simply hits that drop the stormie for the time being.
You'll survive a 7.62NATO hit in Type III/IV body armor, too. Don't except to just shrug it off and keep going after the bad guys, though.
Plus the EU has at least one example of stormie armour turning a direct hit into something survivable.

[JEAP]

Corran in the Rogue Squadron book takes a gut shot with the armor on and comes out with... burns and some deep tissue damage, I think.

Their helmets still don't seem that good though, though. Even allowing for a Gand's greater strength, Ooryl seemed to punch through the helmet without much trouble, or at least doing it didn't impair him. Compare that to the French SPECTRA helmet, which has a Type II armor rating, and can withstand distortions of 20mm from a 9mm bullet. That is something like 44N being applied to an area of 63.5mm2 before helmet failure. I'm not sure how that compares to a punch, even a very strong one, but it does not look favorable to me.

[SirNitram]

Corran in the Rogue Squadron book takes a gut shot with the armor on and comes out with... burns and some deep tissue damage, I think.

Their helmets still don't seem that good though, though. Even allowing for a Gand's greater strength, Ooryl seemed to punch through the helmet without much trouble, or at least doing it didn't impair him. Compare that to the French SPECTRA helmet, which has a Type II armor rating, and can withstand distortions of 20mm from a 9mm bullet. That is something like 44N being applied to an area of 63.5mm2 before helmet failure. I'm not sure how that compares to a punch, even a very strong one, but it does not look favorable to me.

Conservation of momentum and the fact a head is full of gooey stuff that doesn't react well to blows. Unless you mean he physically broke the helmet.

Still, given the amount of high-tech stuff in there, it couldn't be as robust as the body armour, I don't think.

[JEAP]

The Gand nodded and rolled his trooper onto his stomach. The trooper's helmet had a blood-smeared hole in the back of it. The hole itself looked odd, and Corran knew that was because of its shape, not just the jagged outline from where the armor crumpled. Kind of diamond shape...
He looked up, "Did you hurt your hand?"
Ooryl folded his three fingers into a fist with the wounds peculiar shape. "Ooryl is not impaired."

Yeah, a hole.

Putting all that stuff into the helmet has always seemed a bit odd to me. They could surely move some of it into an expanded backpack bulge, as the helmet must be a literal pain in the neck after a while.

[The Cleric]

Corran in the Rogue Squadron book takes a gut shot with the armor on and comes out with... burns and some deep tissue damage, I think.

Their helmets still don't seem that good though, though. Even allowing for a Gand's greater strength, Ooryl seemed to punch through the helmet without much trouble, or at least doing it didn't impair him. Compare that to the French SPECTRA helmet, which has a Type II armor rating, and can withstand distortions of 20mm from a 9mm bullet. That is something like 44N being applied to an area of 63.5mm2 before helmet failure. I'm not sure how that compares to a punch, even a very strong one, but it does not look favorable to me.

I just had CT run rough numbers using me as a generic human as a benchmark, and I apparently can punch with around 108 N total force, assuming I use only my arm/fist and none of my body weight. Granted, that IS spread across the entire area of my fist, so the point impact would be far less.

[Comrade Tortoise]

and that is assuming his fist accelerates at 12 m/sec which could be wrong, as I A) didnt have him as a ... specimen... and dont have a stop motion camera even if I did

[JEAP]

The pressures differences are quite large. I'm just using your number of 104N and the area between my second and third knuckle, about 4400mm2. That yeilds an average pressure of 0.02Pa compaired to 0.69Pa for the bullet.

Now, I have big hands, so your number is probably a bit higher, but the bullet is still putting more energy into a given area that the fist. I'd have to punch with a force of 3,036N to get a similar value for pressure.

[JEAP]

This is what I get for not taking a science class this semester, everything goes an hides in the dusty corners of my mind.

9mm bullet at 358 m/s should produce 2.86N

2.86N distributed over an area of 63.5mm2 should produce a pressure of 45kPa

104N distributed over an area of 4400mm2 should produce a pressure of 23.6kPa

I did some more research on the SPECTRA helmet. It is the UN standard and is probably one of the best combat helmets in existance, at the moment. At its best it is capible of stopping a 1,102g piece of shrapnel traveling at 680 m/s. Even without dredging up my rusty math skills, I can say that is a knockout range blow, but the solder's head has a good chance of being intact afterward.

So, if you can ambush Stoormtroopers and shoot them in an area not more than six inches square on the back of their head, modern arm are likely up to the job of penitrating their armor.

...Hmph, it would be easier to steal a blaster from a supply depot and shoot them with that when they invade.

[The Silence and I]

This is what I get for not taking a science class this semester, everything goes an hides in the dusty corners of my mind.

9mm bullet at 358 m/s should produce 2.86N

How do you figure this?

Assuming a 150 grain 9mm fired at 1000fps --> (converting to metrics) --> (150/7000)*454 g at 1000*(12*2.54/100) m/s : .00973kg at 305m/s.
--> this gives a momentum of 2.97 kq.m/s.

That's not a lot of momentum compared to a fist, but force depends on stopping distance, and by extension, time. If the bullet and armor together deform a total of 10mm then acceleration = ((305m/s)^2)/(2*.01m) = 4.7e6 m/s^2. Then the time of stopping is time = ((2*0.01m)/4.7e6m/s^2)^0.5 = 6.52e-5 seconds.

--> Force is change in momentum/time of change --> 2.97/6.52e-5 = 45.5kN. Somewhat higher than about 3 N, and I was arbitrary with the 'give' in the materials, it could have been less.

--> Pressure then, using 63.5mm^2, is much higher, in the range of 11.3 MPa. Oh, and this is a pistol round, rifles fire at higher velocities.

So I have no idea where you are getting your numbers from.

Their helmets still don't seem that good though, though. Even allowing for a Gand's greater strength, Ooryl seemed to punch through the helmet without much trouble, or at least doing it didn't impair him. Compare that to the French SPECTRA helmet, which has a Type II armor rating, and can withstand distortions of 20mm from a 9mm bullet. That is something like 44N being applied to an area of 63.5mm2 before helmet failure. I'm not sure how that compares to a punch, even a very strong one, but it does not look favorable to me.

I do not see how this is correct. Using the same bullet I used above, I get, over a 20mm deformation, 22.6kN. That gives a grand total of 5.6MPa.

44N?

Think of a Newton like this: ~1000N can lift 100kg in Earth's gravity field; 100kg is ~220lbs. So there are approximately 4.5 N of force for every 1 lb of force. So, 44 N is only ~10 lbs. Now, do you really think 10 lbs can dent a steel helmet?

[frigidmagi]

You know even if the helmet holds up against such rough treatment, there's no real guantee that your skull or your brain will.

Example, you're wearing a steel plate mail helmet, I bash you over the head with a 12 pound sledge hammer. Even if the helmet stays togather, your skull won't, the force is just to much.

They may have decided that it just wasn't cost effective to build a uber helmet.

[Batman]

They may have decided that it just wasn't cost effective to build a uber helmet.

A completely pointlessly uber helmet at that.
You CAN'T completely prevent KE/momentum damage to the head even if the helmet is freaking indestructable. Chances are even if Stormtrooper helmets were as ridiculously tough (by modern standards) as the torso armor something as relatively feeble as 7.62 NATO would STILL kill a Stormie with a head shot. The helmet remain unscratched. The trooper's dead. But hey at least they can reuse the helmet.

[JEAP]

This is what I get for not taking a science class this semester, everything goes an hides in the dusty corners of my mind.

9mm bullet at 358 m/s should produce 2.86N

How do you figure this?

Assuming a 150 grain 9mm fired at 1000fps --> (converting to metrics) --> (150/7000)*454 g at 1000*(12*2.54/100) m/s : .00973kg at 305m/s.
--> this gives a momentum of 2.97 kq.m/s.

That's not a lot of momentum compared to a fist, but force depends on stopping distance, and by extension, time. If the bullet and armor together deform a total of 10mm then acceleration = ((305m/s)^2)/(2*.01m) = 4.7e6 m/s^2. Then the time of stopping is time = ((2*0.01m)/4.7e6m/s^2)^0.5 = 6.52e-5 seconds.

--> Force is change in momentum/time of change --> 2.97/6.52e-5 = 45.5kN. Somewhat higher than about 3 N, and I was arbitrary with the 'give' in the materials, it could have been less.

--> Pressure then, using 63.5mm^2, is much higher, in the range of 11.3 MPa. Oh, and this is a pistol round, rifles fire at higher velocities.

So I have no idea where you are getting your numbers from.

Their helmets still don't seem that good though, though. Even allowing for a Gand's greater strength, Ooryl seemed to punch through the helmet without much trouble, or at least doing it didn't impair him. Compare that to the French SPECTRA helmet, which has a Type II armor rating, and can withstand distortions of 20mm from a 9mm bullet. That is something like 44N being applied to an area of 63.5mm2 before helmet failure. I'm not sure how that compares to a punch, even a very strong one, but it does not look favorable to me.

I do not see how this is correct. Using the same bullet I used above, I get, over a 20mm deformation, 22.6kN. That gives a grand total of 5.6MPa.

44N?

Think of a Newton like this: ~1000N can lift 100kg in Earth's gravity field; 100kg is ~220lbs. So there are approximately 4.5 N of force for every 1 lb of force. So, 44 N is only ~10 lbs. Now, do you really think 10 lbs can dent a steel helmet?

From GlobalSecurity a 9mm full metal jacketed round nose (FMJ RN) bullets, with nominal masses of 8.0 g (124 gr), impacting at a minimum velocity of 358 m/s (1175 ft/s)

8g x 358m/s = 2.864 m kg/s
2.86N x 63.5mm2 = 45kPa



Like I said, its been a while since I took a physics class. I just multiplied its mass by the speed it was traveling. It did seem awfully low, but I couldn't think of why. This is the last time I do any of this stuff without my Physics 101 notes in front of me.

You know even if the helmet holds up against such rough treatment, there's no real guantee that your skull or your brain will.

Example, you're wearing a steel plate mail helmet, I bash you over the head with a 12 pound sledge hammer. Even if the helmet stays togather, your skull won't, the force is just to much.

They may have decided that it just wasn't cost effective to build a uber helmet.

There are still a lot of fragments, be it from blaster impacts or grenades, flying around their battlefields that are going to be packing a lot more energy that a punch to the back of the head.

Though, the more I look at that scene, the more it seems that Corran is suprised that Ooryl punched through the helmet. He, Ooryl, was probably just expecting to do what you suggest, knock the trooper out with a sufficiently hard blow. This was probably a manufacturing flaw or a flaw with that batch of whatever the armor is.

[Batman]

There are still a lot of fragments, be it from blaster impacts or grenades, flying around their battlefields that are going to be packing a lot more energy that a punch to the back of the head.

To put it bluntly-no. Those fragments will almost inevitably lack the mass or the velocity-and in most cases BOTH-to punch though the armour.
Unless we're talking about real arty as opposed to hand or 40mm grenades the energy simply isn't there.
That doesn't mean they couldn't give a trooper a nasty concussion, though.
Wars grenades would of course be a whole different ball game.

[JEAP]

Yeah, I meant StarWars battlefields.

[frigidmagi]

I should point out that a Wars grenade is very likey to be able to punch through our vehicle armor, at the very least. It is likey impossible to armor an infantry man against that without another leap in armor techonolgy.

Hell does Wars even use Frag or do they just do energy blast?