I would point out that burning half the city is not a small sacrifice...
Besides, Astinius is not a Consequentialist. he uses a Deontological form of ethics
Problem here, one which Nalifan doesnt grasp it seems, is that the FR is a world were tangible evil exists. One where a sufficiently powerful wizard can summon incarnations of good and evil over to have tea and crumpets. There isnt much room for moral relativism in that sort of system, or one where horrible means can justify good ends.
Last edited by Comrade Tortoise on Sat Jul 01, 2006 12:52 pm, edited 2 times in total.
"Nothing in biology makes sense except in the light of evolution."
- Theodosius Dobzhansky
There is no word harsh enough for this. No verbal edge sharp and cold enough to set forth the flaying needed. English is to young and the elder languages of the earth beyond me. ~Frigid
The Holocaust was an Amazing Logistical Achievement~Havoc
A city can be rebuilt and more people would be willing to live in it without Banites running the place. Astinus actually strikes me as 3/4 Kantian and 1/4 emo
Last edited by Umbras on Sat Jul 01, 2006 12:58 pm, edited 2 times in total.
"Forgivness is between them and God, its my job to arrange the meeting."
"I don't want you to kill him -- I just want you to bury him. If he dies in the process, that's his problem."
Umbras wrote:A city can be rebuilt and more people would be willing to live in it without Banites running the place. He strikes me as 3/4 Kantian and !/4 emo :p
That could very well be true. Doesnt mean those people's lives should be used as a means though ;)
"Nothing in biology makes sense except in the light of evolution."
- Theodosius Dobzhansky
There is no word harsh enough for this. No verbal edge sharp and cold enough to set forth the flaying needed. English is to young and the elder languages of the earth beyond me. ~Frigid
The Holocaust was an Amazing Logistical Achievement~Havoc
Well you guys came for help, you got it, one thing about Nalifan is he doesnt beat around the bush and subtlty(sp) is not in his nature. Also the city was ready to explode as it was and if there were riots many more lives would have been lost in the end.
"Forgivness is between them and God, its my job to arrange the meeting."
"I don't want you to kill him -- I just want you to bury him. If he dies in the process, that's his problem."
Oh, subtly is ot in Astinius' either... doesnt mean he destroys cities. As I would say if I were writing his dialogue, the means matter just as much as the ends. Lest he stoop the the level of the people he is trying to stop.
"Nothing in biology makes sense except in the light of evolution."
- Theodosius Dobzhansky
There is no word harsh enough for this. No verbal edge sharp and cold enough to set forth the flaying needed. English is to young and the elder languages of the earth beyond me. ~Frigid
The Holocaust was an Amazing Logistical Achievement~Havoc
The city was lost, the Banites had infiltrated the upper echilon and the ensuing faction wars would have torn it apart, shit look what happened to Zenthil Keep. The Banites would have wiped out each and every temple afterwards and along with the enevitable clash with the Nigtmasks there would be more destruction with little hope for the people of the city.
"Forgivness is between them and God, its my job to arrange the meeting."
"I don't want you to kill him -- I just want you to bury him. If he dies in the process, that's his problem."
Umbras wrote:The city was lost, the Banites had infiltrated the upper echilon and the ensuing faction wars would have torn it apart, shit look what happened to Zenthil Keep. The Banites would have wiped out each and every temple afterwards and along with the enevitable clash with the Nigtmasks there would be more destruction with little hope for the people of the city.
Oh indeed, and Astinius knows this. Still doesnt excuse the methods. There are other ways. In fact, there as so many I cant list them. But Nalifan goes for one of the more destructive ones. It fits his character to be certain. But it is not morally excusable in Astinius' eyes.
"Nothing in biology makes sense except in the light of evolution."
- Theodosius Dobzhansky
There is no word harsh enough for this. No verbal edge sharp and cold enough to set forth the flaying needed. English is to young and the elder languages of the earth beyond me. ~Frigid
The Holocaust was an Amazing Logistical Achievement~Havoc
Comrade Tortoise wrote:
(And dont forget, he IS just as smart as Nalifan)
No, he isn't. To bring up the dreaded game mechanics, Nalifan has half a dozen more points of Int without the Crown of Sorcery and completely blows him away Int wise when that particularily multi-day duration Epic spell is operating.
That isn't to say that Astinius isn't wicked smart.
It's not that I'm unforgiving, it's that most of the people who wrong me are unrepentant assholes.
I'm reminded of a much reviled qoute from this debate...
To save the village we had to destory the village
But moving on, the problem here is that Nalifan is not trying in the least to save Westgate. He doesn't give a damn whether Westgate is saved or destoryed. This is about wrecking revenage on the people who not only killed but utterly annilated a person he cared for.
Beyond their pain filled screaming deaths, Nalifan does not give a damn what happens.
"it takes two sides to end a war but only one to start one. And those who do not have swords may still die upon them." Tolken
Comrade Tortoise wrote:
(And dont forget, he IS just as smart as Nalifan)
No, he isn't. To bring up the dreaded game mechanics, Nalifan has half a dozen more points of Int without the Crown of Sorcery and completely blows him away Int wise when that particularily multi-day duration Epic spell is operating.
That isn't to say that Astinius isn't wicked smart.
Oh really? I could have sworn it was just 2 points. Oh well, I suppose he has gotten more powerful since I last saw his stats.
"Nothing in biology makes sense except in the light of evolution."
- Theodosius Dobzhansky
There is no word harsh enough for this. No verbal edge sharp and cold enough to set forth the flaying needed. English is to young and the elder languages of the earth beyond me. ~Frigid
The Holocaust was an Amazing Logistical Achievement~Havoc
"Nothing in biology makes sense except in the light of evolution."
- Theodosius Dobzhansky
There is no word harsh enough for this. No verbal edge sharp and cold enough to set forth the flaying needed. English is to young and the elder languages of the earth beyond me. ~Frigid
The Holocaust was an Amazing Logistical Achievement~Havoc
I hate to say it.. but even with SpellFire, Kaeryn's still thinking Nalifan's going to kill Astinius. In fact, if she runs into Trizk, she'll tell him to warn Nalifan about the SpellFire.
Dogs are Man's Best Friend
Cats are Man's Adorable Little Serial Killers
Cursed "feelings" preventing her from seeing his wickedness...
"Nothing in biology makes sense except in the light of evolution."
- Theodosius Dobzhansky
There is no word harsh enough for this. No verbal edge sharp and cold enough to set forth the flaying needed. English is to young and the elder languages of the earth beyond me. ~Frigid
The Holocaust was an Amazing Logistical Achievement~Havoc
Comrade Tortoise wrote:Cursed "feelings" preventing her from seeing his wickedness...
Curse the hatred that prevents Astinius from seeing anything beyond his 'feelings'.
To be fair, if I were writing him, he would simply Banish the fire spiders and try to reason with Nal, but I am not, so we will see.
"Nothing in biology makes sense except in the light of evolution."
- Theodosius Dobzhansky
There is no word harsh enough for this. No verbal edge sharp and cold enough to set forth the flaying needed. English is to young and the elder languages of the earth beyond me. ~Frigid
The Holocaust was an Amazing Logistical Achievement~Havoc
Comrade Tortoise wrote:Cursed "feelings" preventing her from seeing his wickedness...
Curse the hatred that prevents Astinius from seeing anything beyond his 'feelings'.
Oh, a pox on the lot of you, Nalifan included. There'll be plenty of time to deal with Nalifan after this is over, with the Banites and Night Masks dead and as much of the Vara'Dome and church of Tyr behind us as we can get. But nooooooooo...
"Live free or die: Death is not the worst of evils." -- General John Stark
"A fortress circumvented ceases to be an obstacle.
A fortress destroyed ceases to be a threat.
Do not forget the difference."
"Fairy tales do not tell children the dragons exist. Children already know that dragons exist. Fairy tales tell children the dragons can be killed." -- G. K. Chesterton
Comrade Tortoise wrote:Cursed "feelings" preventing her from seeing his wickedness...
Curse the hatred that prevents Astinius from seeing anything beyond his 'feelings'.
Oh, a pox on the lot of you, Nalifan included. There'll be plenty of time to deal with Nalifan after this is over, with the Banites and Night Masks dead and as much of the Vara'Dome and church of Tyr behind us as we can get. But nooooooooo...
And Kaeryn on Nalifan's side.
Dogs are Man's Best Friend
Cats are Man's Adorable Little Serial Killers
LadyTevar wrote:
Curse the hatred that prevents Astinius from seeing anything beyond his 'feelings'.
Oh, a pox on the lot of you, Nalifan included. There'll be plenty of time to deal with Nalifan after this is over, with the Banites and Night Masks dead and as much of the Vara'Dome and church of Tyr behind us as we can get. But nooooooooo...
And Kaeryn on Nalifan's side.
So Kaeryn's secretly evil, then. Check. How'd you pull that off, use the thing about Mystra accepting the old lawful neutral Mystra's clerics to get lawful evil?
Last edited by Rogue 9 on Sun Jul 02, 2006 4:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"Live free or die: Death is not the worst of evils." -- General John Stark
"A fortress circumvented ceases to be an obstacle.
A fortress destroyed ceases to be a threat.
Do not forget the difference."
"Fairy tales do not tell children the dragons exist. Children already know that dragons exist. Fairy tales tell children the dragons can be killed." -- G. K. Chesterton
"Nothing in biology makes sense except in the light of evolution."
- Theodosius Dobzhansky
There is no word harsh enough for this. No verbal edge sharp and cold enough to set forth the flaying needed. English is to young and the elder languages of the earth beyond me. ~Frigid
The Holocaust was an Amazing Logistical Achievement~Havoc
Rogue 9 wrote:
Oh, a pox on the lot of you, Nalifan included. There'll be plenty of time to deal with Nalifan after this is over, with the Banites and Night Masks dead and as much of the Vara'Dome and church of Tyr behind us as we can get. But nooooooooo...
And Kaeryn on Nalifan's side.
So Kaeryn's secretly evil, then. Check. How'd you pull that off, use the thing about Mystra accepting the old lawful neutral Mystra's clerics to get lawful evil?
No, Kaeryn is NEUTRAL. Always has been, although she leans more towards good deeds than bad. So far, she's found more than enough people to balance her out, like Nalifan, and she's on your side now because of all the evil hiding within Westgate.
However, if Gaheris and Astinius try to take down Nalifan simply because 'hes' evil', after Nalifan risked Death to help you both, Kaeryn will stand against you. Why? Balance. Fairness.
Dogs are Man's Best Friend
Cats are Man's Adorable Little Serial Killers
Good alignments include the capability to understand 'acceptable losses' and 'necessary sacrifices', and the fluff of D&D, and particularly Faerun, is filled with such. Thinking you have to be evil to support burning out vampires and banites when the city is so infested you could never cleanse the corruption without rebuilding it is hardly horrific.
Mind you, the paladins that would do this is a short list and they are hard to the very core.
Half-Damned, All Hero.
Tev: You're happy. You're Plotting. You're Evil.
Me: Evil is so inappropriate. I'm ruthless.
Tev: You're turning me on.
That's the thing, though. She's on our side because of all the evil in Westgate, but when it comes to the evil that Nalifan does, she doesn't give a blue damn. That's not neutrality. She's blinded at best. She loves Nalifan, or at least has considerable lust for him, and is letting that blind her eyes to the fact that he's just killed hundreds if not thousands of people for the sake of vengeance. That is the bottom line.
Last edited by Rogue 9 on Sun Jul 02, 2006 7:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"Live free or die: Death is not the worst of evils." -- General John Stark
"A fortress circumvented ceases to be an obstacle.
A fortress destroyed ceases to be a threat.
Do not forget the difference."
"Fairy tales do not tell children the dragons exist. Children already know that dragons exist. Fairy tales tell children the dragons can be killed." -- G. K. Chesterton
SirNitram wrote:Good alignments include the capability to understand 'acceptable losses' and 'necessary sacrifices', and the fluff of D&D, and particularly Faerun, is filled with such. Thinking you have to be evil to support burning out vampires and banites when the city is so infested you could never cleanse the corruption without rebuilding it is hardly horrific.
Mind you, the paladins that would do this is a short list and they are hard to the very core.
Are there paladins who would do it? Maybe. Would they do it for revenge? No. Motive matters.
"Live free or die: Death is not the worst of evils." -- General John Stark
"A fortress circumvented ceases to be an obstacle.
A fortress destroyed ceases to be a threat.
Do not forget the difference."
"Fairy tales do not tell children the dragons exist. Children already know that dragons exist. Fairy tales tell children the dragons can be killed." -- G. K. Chesterton
Rogue 9 wrote:That's the thing, though. She's on our side because of all the evil in Westgate, but when it comes to the evil that Nalifan does, she doesn't give a blue damn. That's not neutrality. She's blinded at best. She loves Nalifan, or at least has considerable lust for him, and is letting that blind her eyes to the fact that he's just killed hundreds if not thousands of people for the sake of vengeance. That is the bottom line.
I was unaware your already well-known telepathy, able to scry out a person's intent down to the minutae of their motivations and bias, extends to completely fictional individuals.
Oh wait....
Rogue, get off it. You aren't nearly as authoritative as you keep thinking you are. Sit the fuck down, you're getting annoying.
Half-Damned, All Hero.
Tev: You're happy. You're Plotting. You're Evil.
Me: Evil is so inappropriate. I'm ruthless.
Tev: You're turning me on.
