Battletech with the Original Spirit but Better Science

[frigidmagi]

So using your model all pilots would have to be psionics? Would they be mindreaders or what?

[SirNitram]

True, you won't, but if we can at least find some way of using handwavium to explain it away, it does taste a bit better going down.

I do like the concept of tanks as foot soldiers while 'Mechwarriors are more like an elite class of knights, I'm just looking for a way to justify it other than "lol stats R better". A light 'Mech should be able to duke it out with a heavier tank with moderate difficulty in this model, which I think helps retain a lot of the original theme.

Aren't most Btech weapons direct fire? LoS? A mech would have superior range, as it's higher up.

Also, if we assume Mechs are the 'knights', their pilots will naturally be superior.

[Josh]

Mobility would be the presumed advantage of Mechs over tanks in the conventional sense of the storyline, as well as the fact that Mechs mount fusio powerplants over tanks running internal combustion. (At least for the rules I used to work with, because I'm fairly out of date on the game rules myself.)

LOS doesn't work so well because if you can see them, they can see you.

The neurohelmets originally weren't 'control systems', they just imparted the pilot's sense of balance onto the mech to allow for rapid locomotion. (Excepting in the Main Event).

[Hotfoot]

So using your model all pilots would have to be psionics? Would they be mindreaders or what?

Psionics possibly. Not necessarily mind-readers, but at least latent talents. Psionic-Machine links are not unknown in science fiction, after all.

The height and mobility would be advantages, true (also, it would be just damn cool to watch certain 'Mechs plant themselves to the ground or fire retro-rockets to compensate for the heavier kinetic weapons). The powerplant technology, however, is one of those things that would be available for tanks as well unless we somehow explain that away as only a Mechwarrior has the capability to manage them through the neural interface and prevent a critical power loss or something.

[frigidmagi]

Height is not an advantage, it makes you easier to see, target and hit. Kinda like how lightening hits the tallest object?

[SirNitram]

Height is not an advantage, it makes you easier to see, target and hit. Kinda like how lightening hits the tallest object?

I've been handed mechs to try and improve while being somewhat scientific. Just making them on-par should be nigh-impossible with both made at the same tech level. I give what I can, even if it's far from perfect.

[LadyTevar]

Hehe. With the exception of the Ost-series mechs, I'm something of an Unseen-nut. I've got old Wolverines, Marauders, Crusaders, enough Battlemasters that I've actually hacked up a couple for custom mod-jobs... I like the old stuff :) Some of the Reseen designs are crap, most are alright, and a few, like the new Longbow, are indisputably better-looking. And all of that wildly off the point. Now, on to piccies!

I see to recall giving you my old Unseen Mechs, as a matter of fact. I highly suggest Piccies of them be posted :-D

And the new LongBow and Riflemen look very nice!

[LadyTevar]

So using your model all pilots would have to be psionics? Would they be mindreaders or what?

Psionics possibly. Not necessarily mind-readers, but at least latent talents. Psionic-Machine links are not unknown in science fiction, after all.

The height and mobility would be advantages, true (also, it would be just damn cool to watch certain 'Mechs plant themselves to the ground or fire retro-rockets to compensate for the heavier kinetic weapons). The powerplant technology, however, is one of those things that would be available for tanks as well unless we somehow explain that away as only a Mechwarrior has the capability to manage them through the neural interface and prevent a critical power loss or something.

Wasn't one reason for the difference in powerplants the fact that the mechs had more room for heat sinks?

[Josh]

I don't recall that being the argument offhand, but if you do handwavium fusion plants into being mech-only, they do come out with a massive logistical advantage over tanks.

I'm curious, have they ever specified a power source for battle armor? It's kind of hilarious to think of them with exhaust stacks on their backpacks.

[Stofsk]

I don't recall that being the argument offhand, but if you do handwavium fusion plants into being mech-only, they do come out with a massive logistical advantage over tanks.

You could always say that fusion can't be miniaturised, thus necessitating the large frame of a battlemech. Hell, we don't even know if it's practical or possible to build a fusion reactor IRL, so it's anyone's guess really how it would apply in the battletech universe.

[frigidmagi]

If I recall there is a problem with getting the magnets to hold in the plasma. I think the psionic thing is the best we're gonna get, it should require being plugged into a machine to work (this is called gesalt if I remember right, the Rowan novels used the idea of psionics connecting with generaters to become more powerful).

Part of the problem would be finding pilots with this talent of course.

[Stofsk]

Presumably it's something that requires genetic engineering - think of the Edenists in Hamilton's "Night's Dawn" trilogy. They are born with the affinity gene.

But I'm not sure what you're saying - psionics is enhanced by the fusion powerplant, or psionics enhances everything including the plant?

[SirNitram]

If I may.

The Battlemech becomes less a 'pure' vehicle, and more an extension of the Psychic. While, with the gene 'switched on', they might have very minor abilities(Say, a second or two precognition when calm, biofeedback, etc), the machine is optimized to enhance and magnify their powers. They feed off the fusion powerplant, the 'muscle material' of the Mech channels the psi-power, and the weapons focus the energies destructively.

[frigidmagi]

Well in the Rowan the way it worked was that a psionic would tap into the generator for energy in order to do literally insane feats of power. For example Primes (the strongest of the lot) used them to hurl multi-hundred tonned ships across light years.

A bit about the book

I figure what we could do is have the psionics tapping into the generators in order to do alot of crazy shit that explains their dominance over tanks. I admit it's not very sciencifitic but what do you want from me I'm the bloody fantasy mod...

[Hotfoot]

This could work out really well actually. 'Mech pilots being psions could play well into how they are recruited. A lot of the recruits could come from the various noble castes of the Inner Sphere, all of whom are very careful in who they breed with, with occasional "wild talents" making up the various merc units.

Then the clans come, and with their improved genetic manipulation accentuating the gene that causes the psionic trait, their pilots are far improved.

[SirNitram]

It's well out of what I was hoping to find here, but hey.. Whatever works. Though honestly, if we're going this far, why not just make up our own shit entirely?

[Hotfoot]

Well, it's honestly not easy to just slap a patch on Btech and call it kosher. Either you're slapping a more anime feel on it and getting Mekton Zeta or Jovian Chronicles, or, well, this. I'd like to keep the feeling of big powerful machines wailing at each other until you break through, because frankly that is part of the original feel of the setting. A little handwavium on the concept tech helps, of course.

[White Haven]

...You are all fucking mad. PSIONICS? ENERGY SHIELDS? Goddamn, even Weisman didn't shit all over Battletech that badly.

[Hotfoot]

...You are all fucking mad. PSIONICS? ENERGY SHIELDS? Goddamn, even Weisman didn't shit all over Battletech that badly.

Have you SEEN what Battletech has done to itself? Did you look at my calcs in the other thread? This is the ONLY way you're going to keep the original feel at all. Anything else would drastically alter the game so much that, well, you'd get Heavy Gear or Jovian Chronicles.

[White Haven]

And, as a bit of rebuttal to all the whiners about BT tanks not being armored heavily enough, I present a comparison. 95-ton assault tank, 95-ton assault mech, same tech-base.

Code: Select all

--------------------------------------------------------
Type/Model:    Heimdall Ground Monitor Tank 
Mass:          95 tons

Equipment:                                 Items    Mass
Int. Struct.:  50 pts Standard               0      9.50
Engine:        285 XL Fusion                 1      8.50
Shielding & Transmission Equipment:          0      4.50
    Cruise MP:   3
     Flank MP:   5
Heat Sinks:     18 Single                    0      8.00
Cockpit & Controls:                          0      5.00
Crew: 7 Members                              0       .00
Turret Equipment (Locked):                   0      1.50
Armor Factor:  352 pts Standard              0     22.00

                          Internal    Armor
                          Structure   Value
   Front:                    10        106 
   Left / Right Sides:       10      70/70 
   Rear:                     10         47 
   Turret:                   10         59 

Weapons and Equipment    Loc  Heat  Ammo   Items    Mass
--------------------------------------------------------
1 LB 10-X AC             Front    0   30     2     13.00
1 LB 10-X AC             Front    0          1     10.00
1 Heavy Large Laser      Turret  18          1      4.00
1 Streak SRM 4           Turret   0   25     2      3.00
1 Streak SRM 4           Turret   0   25     1      3.00
1 Streak SRM 4           Turret   0   25     1      3.00
1 C.A.S.E. Equipment     Body                0       .00
--------------------------------------------------------
TOTALS:                          18          9     95.00
Items & Tons Left:                          15       .00

Code: Select all

--------------------------------------------------------
Type/Model:    Turkina  Prime
Mass:          95 tons

Equipment:                                 Crits    Mass
Int. Struct.:  145 pts Standard              0      9.50
Engine:        285 XL Fusion                10      8.50
   Walking MP:   3
   Running MP:   5
   Jumping MP:   3
Heat Sinks:     19 Double [38]              16      9.00
 (Heat Sink Loc: 2 RA, 2 LT, 2 RT, 1 LL, 1 RL)
Gyro:                                        4      3.00
Cockpit, Life Supt., Sensors:                5      3.00
Actuators: L: Sh+UA    R: Sh+UA             12       .00
Armor Factor:  288 pts Standard              0     18.00

                          Internal    Armor
                          Structure   Value
   Head:                      3          9      
   Center Torso:             30         45      
   Center Torso (Rear):                 10      
   L/R Side Torso:           20      30/30      
   L/R Side Torso (Rear):            10/10      
   L/R Arm:                  16      32/32      
   L/R Leg:                  20      40/40      

Weapons and Equipment    Loc  Heat  Ammo   Crits    Mass
--------------------------------------------------------
2 LB 5-X ACs             LA      2   40     10     16.00
  (Ammo Locations: 2 LA)
2 ER PPCs                RA     30           4     12.00
1 LRM 15                 LT      5           2      3.50
1 LRM 15                 RT      5   24      5      6.50
  (Ammo Locations: 2 LT, 1 RT)
3 Standard Jump Jets:                        3      6.00
 (Jump Jet Loc: 1 LT, 1 RT, 1 CT)
--------------------------------------------------------
TOTALS:                         42          71     95.00
Crits & Tons Left:                           7       .00

A few things to note here. First off, the Turkina is almost at the max possible armor for a 95-ton mech. And yet the Heimdall is capable of carrying more overall armor than the Turkina, and in a more concentrated fashion, due to being a simpler, more compact design. The great weakness of tanks as they stand now are tank crits, which need reworking for this setting. Mechs can survive losing extraneous sections, which tanks can't. Mechs can traverse some truly crazy terrain due to having a 'suspension' system four to six meters tall. Mechs can drop from low orbit via the use of breaking boosters. Mechs can mount jump-jets. They have advantages, they don't need psykers and energy shields to have them.

EDIT: Posted while I was posting. No, I haven't seen your obnoxiously vague 'other thread.' And since I don't believe we're trying to go for hard SF, but instead just rectifying some of the more glaring issues, I don't give two flying shits about your calculations.

[SirNitram]

...You are all fucking mad. PSIONICS? ENERGY SHIELDS? Goddamn, even Weisman didn't shit all over Battletech that badly.

Have you SEEN what Battletech has done to itself? Did you look at my calcs in the other thread? This is the ONLY way you're going to keep the original feel at all. Anything else would drastically alter the game so much that, well, you'd get Heavy Gear or Jovian Chronicles.

Or you could just.. Let it be. Fixed the errors with range and just leave hte mechs better for whatever silly reason it is.

What you're making isn't BTech. If could be an interesting setting.. But even as a person whose played a few times, I can tell you this is a radical departure which doesn't FIT. And if it doesn't fit, you don't try and hammer it.

[Hotfoot]

The thread from which this one was spawned, the silly technology thread. But hey, you want glaring issues, here's some:

AC/20's have densities less than that of water. Machine guns shoot vapor. Gauss Rifles should knock everything on its ass, and most of all, knock 'mechs around like children's toys. Armor has such a low ablation point it's a marvel that they can walk without getting shorter with each step.

In case you hadn't noticed by now, nothing I've suggested is hard science. Let's face facts, there's no way to get Battletech to work with hard science. The question is, what parts of the universe do you want to maintain? The gritty, granular nature of things, or the big, tough 'mechs dominating everything in the battlefield? You can't have both and easily maintain SoD.

As far as the 'Mech/Tank comparison, the thing is, the way the game handles it, you're more likely to punch through tank armor than 'Mech armor, due to the hit locations, even if you do have slightly more armor (and I do mean slightly).

[White Haven]

Alright...so wait...the weapons need tweaking for physics reasons...and even if we allow that that matters at all...where do energy shields and psykers come into this?

[SirNitram]

Dozens of settings maintain gritty feel and mechs. They do this by not stressing over calculations or inherent weaknesses, but by delivering the POINT: War in it's nasty, bloody, brutish nature, and giant walkers. They don't need shields, or psychics, or giant red goo monsters who protect the Mech. They simply stop stressing and go forward.

You wanted the 'feel' of BattleTech, and Haven and I are being blunt: You are taking the feel and setting and violating it with a barbed-wire dildo.

[Stofsk]

I don't see what's wrong with simply saying fusion can't be miniaturised in a practical way, hence large battleframes are required. There you go: huge towering robots with a fusion powerplant. If you want fleets of tanks that's fine, but individually they're not going to have enough power to take on a 'mech. Think of a 'mech as a bear and tanks as wolf packs.

Psionic warrior pilots sounds nice but you lose the grittiness the setting requires. For a start, what happens to mercenaries? Second, you'd have to make psionics really numerous as well as be the entire nobility, which can work (see the Zhodani in the Traveller setting) but from what I know about BTech, it just doesn't fit. Besides, wouldn't it make more sense to use telepaths as spies anyway, rather than risk them on the battlefield? (Thank you Bester for that insight)