Improve Star Trek

[Stofsk]

I'm curious about this and want to start a discussion.

Take your favourite ST show. This can be TOS, or it can be TNG, or DS9 (please don't tell me VOY or ENT is your favourite Trek show). How can it be improved? I'll be the first to say that TOS has ample room for improvement, such as the visual effects and the special effects down to writing gaffes and Roddenberryisms.

DS9 is another case. Of all Star Trek's spinoffs, I found that DS9 showed the most promise and yet fell so far from where it could have been. Unlike VOY and ENT, which were crap from day one, I was intrigued by DS9's premise and it's plot that I genuinely found it to be an interesting new look at the Star Trek universe. But I found that they fell so far from where they could have gone.

If you could impose your direction, what would you have done?

[frigidmagi]

To be honest part of what I think would help has already been posted in the Alternate Klingon thread. Alien civilizations need to be more than one note wonders and there should be cultural alternatives to the Federation that don't invovle complete and utter domination by a single specis. Other changes would be the writing (less techno-babble damn you), the Federation, and the sheer fact that there was little character conflict in TNS and Voy.

As for Deep Space Nine it's my favorite of the lot. I'm quiet content to leave it be.

Voy is the one who fell the most from my point of view. It could have been a damn good show with friction within the crew (Hey Janeway, WTF with's sticking us here like that? Remotes heeeellllooo? And why the fuck are the Maquis here, weren't we like suppose to you know... Jail them?) and without.

Instead we got crap of the week and the never ending stream of supplies. Man if one little Fed ship can supply itself so damn well out in the beyond, I fail to see how the Federation can ever run out of supplies, which makes war alot simplier.

Ent was fucked from the get go when they decided to make Ent more advanced than TOS, here's a tip... Don't ignore continuity when making prequels ass. Also... No Klingons, it's damn silly for them to live so fucking close to earth and yet both sides can't do any quick strikes to behead the enemy? Come on...

I would pretty much leave TOS alone.

[Stofsk]

As for Deep Space Nine it's my favorite of the lot. I'm quiet content to leave it be.

I'm not. I've had my mind on DS9 recently thanks to some threads over at SDN.

I like an idea I read over there that involved changing the war dynamic from total war to something of a proxy war between the Maquis and the Cardassians, with the Maquis being tacitly supplied by the Federation and the Cardassians being supplied by the Dominion.

As far as the Bajorans go, I would have them fall under the Klingon's cultural influence if we take your ideas about them and apply them. The Federation would be engaged in a culture war against the Klingons with the Bajorans in the middle. Ben Sisko would still be the Emissary - totally resistant to it at all times too but the Admiralty wants him to accept it because they want Bajor in the Federation (because they want the Bajoran Wormhole to be Federation property) - but there would be a counter culture forming on Bajor that is influenced by the Klingons, who are motivated by the desire to possess the wormhole as well.

Sisko and his crew would eventually side with the Maquis. The Maquis are not villified as terrorists but as freedom fighters (literally). Fleet battles wouldn't be 'wall of ships vs another wall of ships' but more strategic, with no technobabble solutions tolerated, and with limited aim and assymetrical warfare in mind. (Hit and run raids and so on)

I'd change the bumbling Ferengi into the alpha quadrant's Fifth Power. (I'm going by Birth of the Federation here) No more showing them obsessed over making money and somehow never making any money (Quark talks about profit like a Klingon talks about honour, yet he still runs a dive of a bar and never succeeds).

The premise of the show is how the Gamma Quadrant is open for business thanks to the discovery of the Wormhole. The Bajorans are wary of any imperialist power as the Cardassians had soured their mouth so to speak. However, it would be a fallacy to suggest the Bajorans beat the Cardassians and it's more like the Cardassians just got tired with it.

Exploration is very important. DS9 is a Bajoran station crewed by Bajorans with Federation 'advisors' there. Sisko heads the Federation task force there that's meant to keep the place running. Much of the show would be about policing the Bajoran system as well as exploring the Gamma Quadrant. The kind of antagonists they'd find is Ferengi capitalists looking to exploit the Gamma Quadrant, Klingons (and in this alternate scenario the Klingon Federation relationship is a lot more tenuous). Unexpected allies would be the Romulans - I would have it that the Romulan Vulcan reunification is happening and is successful, making for improved relations between the two races and the Feds and Rommies.

The Cardassians are a strong power but not as strong as either the Klingons or the Federation. The wormhole is a strong selling point for the show. The premise is about colonialism, imperialism and insurgency and so on. The Dominion for example would be different to what we got originally, and more in line with a reaction against the encroaching AQ powers.

Basically what I would want to do is make a political intrigue show that explores the ramifications of exploration. Bajor is neutral and so is it's wormhole - everyone wants a piece of the action and everyone competes to come out on top. Sisko is a young captain, kind of like Kirk, and reacts against the Picards that run the Federation. That is one of the reasons why he sides with the Maquis and in the end he'll come to despise the Admiralty.

I'd keep the wormhole aliens as aliens. The Bajorans can believe whatever they want about them, but the aliens don't have to believe it as well.

I would pretty much leave TOS alone.

What about my remake idea? :sad:

[frigidmagi]

I like an idea I read over there that involved changing the war dynamic from total war to something of a proxy war between the Maquis and the Cardassians, with the Maquis being tacitly supplied by the Federation and the Cardassians being supplied by the Dominion.

I kinda liked it has it stood, it showed the logical end game of the Federation's policies and abadoning their own to alien domination. If the Federation gave a damn about those colonist in the first place they wouldn't turn them over to a regime they know to be facist in every sense of the word. Futhermore the Picards wouldn't even help the Bajorians who practically lived under the threat of genocide from the Cardasians. Basically to get what you want we have to rewrite the whole of TNG, as you saw I'm not against that however, if TNG stays the same DS-9 stays the same.

If you want a proxy war I would suggest having someone else supply them. Romanulans maybe? I don't like how they seem so aloof from galaxtic politics, let's get them invovled. They could fake it being the Federation in the hope of pulling the Starfleet into a series of draining wars.

As far as the Bajorans go, I would have them fall under the Klingon's cultural influence if we take your ideas about them and apply them. The Federation would be engaged in a culture war against the Klingons with the Bajorans in the middle. Ben Sisko would still be the Emissary - totally resistant to it at all times too but the Admiralty wants him to accept it because they want Bajor in the Federation (because they want the Bajoran Wormhole to be Federation property) - but there would be a counter culture forming on Bajor that is influenced by the Klingons, who are motivated by the desire to possess the wormhole as well.

I kinda like the culture war idea there, may I make a suggestion? The guys who did most of the fighting (Kira's group for example) would be the most likely to embrace the Klingons. Maybe the Klingons supplied the rebels and sent advisors? Or 'volunteers' showed up on Bajor? Meanwhile the religious orders aren't so happy about the idea (Klingons have their own religion you see and don't need Kais). Among the farmers and such the Klingons aren't so popular either. Among the kids there should be split between those who are turning to the Federations "modern ideas," their religious identiy and of course those who embrace the Klingons and Kira's warrior ethos.

Sisko and his crew would eventually side with the Maquis. The Maquis are not villified as terrorists but as freedom fighters (literally). Fleet battles wouldn't be 'wall of ships vs another wall of ships' but more strategic, with no technobabble solutions tolerated, and with limited aim and assymetrical warfare in mind. (Hit and run raids and so on)

Full agreement, expect there should be split of opinion. For example take HAMAS, the IRA and Hezbollah (someone please take them). You and I veiw them as terrorist, however even within our own society there are those who would disagree.

I'd change the bumbling Ferengi into the alpha quadrant's Fifth Power. (I'm going by Birth of the Federation here) No more showing them obsessed over making money and somehow never making any money (Quark talks about profit like a Klingon talks about honour, yet he still runs a dive of a bar and never succeeds).

The point of that was that Quark was a lousy Ferengi, consider that while he vocally clung to Ferengi fundalmentalist values (yes I get a kick out of saying it) his actions were anything but (he allowed a union, covered for his mother and helped a female estblish a business). That being said, it could be interesting if you ran the Ferengi has a power ran by Robber Barons/Captains of Industry types. If nothing else Ferengi politics would be... dynamic.

The premise of the show is how the Gamma Quadrant is open for business thanks to the discovery of the Wormhole. The Bajorans are wary of any imperialist power as the Cardassians had soured their mouth so to speak. However, it would be a fallacy to suggest the Bajorans beat the Cardassians and it's more like the Cardassians just got tired with it.

In the show the Bajorians didn't win militarly speakingeither, it was that the cost of keeping Bajor was higher than the Cardassians considered it to be worth. Meanwhile I agree the Bajorians should be wary of just about anyone.

Exploration is very important. DS9 is a Bajoran station crewed by Bajorans with Federation 'advisors' there. Sisko heads the Federation task force there that's meant to keep the place running. Much of the show would be about policing the Bajoran system as well as exploring the Gamma Quadrant. The kind of antagonists they'd find is Ferengi capitalists looking to exploit the Gamma Quadrant, Klingons (and in this alternate scenario the Klingon Federation relationship is a lot more tenuous). Unexpected allies would be the Romulans - I would have it that the Romulan Vulcan reunification is happening and is successful, making for improved relations between the two races and the Feds and Rommies.

Hrm... Another suggestion? While the populations on the ground level are unifying the politicos in both the Federation and the Romalun Empire are both not so happy about this. Niether do the Romulans want to live under Federation Rule or the Vulcans under the Empire, adding another political element to it all (if we don't like either country why not get our own?) Both sides would be looking for distractions in this case.

The Cardassians are a strong power but not as strong as either the Klingons or the Federation. The wormhole is a strong selling point for the show. The premise is about colonialism, imperialism and insurgency and so on. The Dominion for example would be different to what we got originally, and more in line with a reaction against the encroaching AQ powers.

Not sure I'm grooving on this. I mean is there a reason why the Gamma quadent has to be weaker than the Alpha powers?

Basically what I would want to do is make a political intrigue show that explores the ramifications of exploration. Bajor is neutral and so is it's wormhole - everyone wants a piece of the action and everyone competes to come out on top. Sisko is a young captain, kind of like Kirk, and reacts against the Picards that run the Federation. That is one of the reasons why he sides with the Maquis and in the end he'll come to despise the Admiralty.

I could see this as working.

I'd keep the wormhole aliens as aliens. The Bajorans can believe whatever they want about them, but the aliens don't have to believe it as well.

Actually I kinda like the idea of a religion that can prove with 100% evidence that it's gods are real and that their involved. Not to mention this would require rewriting the orbs, which I also liked and the whole reason for Siskos existence, it might just be easier to write a whole new show. But then I'm religious and like religion in a Sci-Fi that isn't written as the cause of all evil or just wrong. Call me crazy.

What about my remake idea?

Oh I'm behind what you would do believe me, but that's your work not mine. I know I can't write TOS doesn't mean you can't.

[Cynical Cat]

Reunification between Romulans and Vulcans is a bad idea. They're too different. A thaw in relations is possible and maybe a few small steps towards better relations.

Klingons need to be John M. Ford's version. Smart, driven, and aggressive with different but recognizable values.

Keep the grey area about Maquis and Bajoran freedom fighters. Its one thing DS9 did. Kira killed noncombatants and wasn't ashamed of it. She never ran from the label of "terrorist".

Keep Dukat as a power hungry egomaniac who loves his family. He was cool up until the Pah Wraith nonsense. Dumar was also good as a loyal follower who finds himself having become a man he despises serving a cause that isn't his own. Having him becoming disillusioned as Dukat climes the ranks using whatever methods he has too and brings Dumar up with him would be good.

[Stofsk]

Reunification between Romulans and Vulcans is a bad idea. They're too different. A thaw in relations is possible and maybe a few small steps towards better relations.

Reunification may be unfeasible but the point is that it's a process that has survived if not succeeded. In other words, it's made the two get closer in terms of relations but not buddy buddy close.

Keep the grey area about Maquis and Bajoran freedom fighters. Its one thing DS9 did. Kira killed noncombatants and wasn't ashamed of it. She never ran from the label of "terrorist".

I believe she was ashamed. She did what she had to do but that doesn't mean she liked it.

As for the Maquis... the grey shades is supposed to affect everything. Starfleet is grey, the Federation is grey, the Cardassians and Bajorans are grey... not just the Maquis. I take your point well, but I say have it apply to everyone. No shining knights.

[Cynical Cat]

I never bought reunification. Moderately warm relations possibly, but they're too different. Especially if you're using those crappy TNG episodes for the basis of a reunification process that was actually cover for a surprise attack. It's silly.


Kira never pulled her punches. She wished she never had to fight the occupation, but she was proud of fighting. She regretted the necessity of her actions, not the actions.

[Stofsk]

I never bought reunification. Moderately warm relations possibly, but they're too different. Especially if you're using those crappy TNG episodes for the basis of a reunification process that was actually cover for a surprise attack. It's silly.

Even back in TOS - I am thinking of "The Enterprise Incident" - Romulans gave a grudging respect towards Vulcans (how much of that was the hottie commander having the hots for Nimoy is unknown).

And yes, the whole TNG thing was silly. I also didn't like how TNG made Vulcans and Romulans visually identical aside from some bone ridges - what the fuck is it with Star Trek and bone ridges? - right down to the geeky Spock hairstyle.

My idea was to have a thawing of relations and to not have Romulans and Federations at each other's throats. Perhaps it would be better to approach this as though TNG isn't in the picture.

[frigidmagi]

My opinion of the matter is that DS-9 cannot exist without TNG. Alot of what happens in the show is the effect of TNG's causes and what not.

[frigidmagi]

I would like to slide in one rule for all the series. No More Fucking Time Travel. None, Zip, Zero!