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Cynical Cat · Post by **Cynical Cat** » Sat Jul 16, 2005 1:16 am

The fluff kicks ass. My biggest problems with the d20 system are:

hitpoints

AC/attack bonus: high level you are god like. But that means in order to have even a chance of missing a high level, it has to be impossible for low level. Which lead to the whole hitpoints thing and the ridiculous uberness of high level characters. It almost works in epic fantasy, but not so much in space opera. TBF, it works at least up to mid levels in Star Wars.

The way armour works.

Stofsk · Post by **Stofsk** » Sat Jul 16, 2005 1:24 am

Cynical Cat wrote:The fluff kicks ass.

Thanks.

hitpoints

T20's Stamina/Vitality is different from Vitality/Wounds, which is different from hitpoints. Is your issue with hitpoints or Vitality/Wounds?

AC/attack bonus: high level you are god like. But that means in order to have even a chance of missing a high level, it has to be impossible for low level. Which lead to the whole hitpoints thing and the ridiculous uberness of high level characters. It almost works in epic fantasy, but not so much in space opera. TBF, it works at least up to mid levels in Star Wars.

ÃƒÆ’Ã‚Âwhy doesn't it work for space opera?

The way armour works.

What do you mean?

Cynical Cat · Post by **Cynical Cat** » Sat Jul 16, 2005 1:38 am

Vitality/Wounds is better than straight hitpoints but still means your are getting hit a bunch of times and not taking damage. Yes, I know we rationalize this to mean that they are near misses, but it is still a half assed way of going about it.

As for why it doesn't work in space opera, unless you have Jedi with lightsabers, no one should be particularily hard to hit for professional soldiers. You get stupid stuff, like people standing still in open ground and blasting away, because they get all their attacks with a Full Attack action and they enemy isn't likely to hit even at close range and even if they hit it is just a few vitality.

As for armour, I don't know how they do it in Traveller. It's okay in Star Wars, but it sucks in D&D.

Cynical Cat · Post by **Cynical Cat** » Sat Jul 16, 2005 1:44 am

Let me give one exampe: +2 AC for leathery hide. Sure your thick skin makes it harder to hit you with a rail gun or high energy laser. That's a piece of d20 silliness.

Cynical Cat · Post by **Cynical Cat** » Sat Jul 16, 2005 1:45 am

Let me give one exampe: +2 AC for leathery hide. Sure your thick skin makes it harder to hit you with a rail gun or high energy laser. That's a piece of d20 silliness.

Stofsk · Post by **Stofsk** » Sat Jul 16, 2005 1:54 am

Cynical Cat wrote:Vitality/Wounds is better than straight hitpoints but still means your are getting hit a bunch of times and not taking damage. Yes, I know we rationalize this to mean that they are near misses, but it is still a half assed way of going about it.

Ok, in T20 Stamina is like Vitality up to a point. The point comes when you use firearms or dangerous weapons like a sword. At that point, damage goes to Lifeblood, which is SW Wounds. So Stamina is used for combat where you deck each other or what not, but Lifeblood is a lot more valuable and lethal weaponry is suitably lethal. So basically, stamina is for low scale combat - mugged in an alley, bar room fight, fistfights etc. Lifeblood is for high scale dangerous combat - basically whenever the guns come out. A shotgun at close range does 3d6 damage IIRC and that goes STRAIGHT TO LIFEBLOOD. Since Lifeblood is basically your Con score plus possible feats that can improve it minutely, that can take a lot of your life away. If you are unlucky enough to fall victim of a critical, well... optimistically, you'd be down for the count and leaking vital fluids.

That's the subtle difference between Stamina/Lifeblood and Vitality/Wounds.

As for why it doesn't work in space opera, unless you have Jedi with lightsabers, no one should be particularily hard to hit for professional soldiers. You get stupid stuff, like people standing still in open ground and blasting away, because they get all their attacks with a Full Attack action and they enemy isn't likely to hit even at close range and even if they hit it is just a few vitality.

On that point, given the distinction between Stamina/Lifeblood and Vitality/Wounds, would you say that combat is deadlier in T20? That seems to be what you're going after.

As for armour, I don't know how they do it in Traveller. It's okay in Star Wars, but it sucks in D&D.

T20 is like SW and D&D. :? Classes don't get defence bonuses, that comes from Armour IE there is AC. AC also works like in SW's damage reduction. So in effect, the AC increases your defence and gives you damage reduction. I think in D&D it is just AC, not damage reduction, but I haven't played it in years, and that was 3.0 (I haven't even looked at 3.5)

How does that sound?

Incidentally unless you reply in the next 15 minutes I am going to have to cut the discussion short. I'll be leaving for Lake Balaton soon. :)

Cynical Cat · Post by **Cynical Cat** » Sat Jul 16, 2005 2:00 am

3.5 is very close to 3.0.

The Stamina/Lifeblood thing doesn't sound too bad.

The AC bugs me, but we'll both have to live with that.

Enjoy the lake.

Josh · Post by **Josh** » Sat Jul 16, 2005 10:46 am

Stofsk wrote:Any feedback on the fluff? Anybody?

There's a whole feckin' lot of it...

Seriously, looks good on the first skim. I'll read it a bit more closely as time allows and throw out some feedback.

frigidmagi · Post by **frigidmagi** » Sat Jul 16, 2005 10:57 am

From what I can see you went with seperate navies and command sturctures? Is there an overorganization like NATO or UN Peackeeper Command?

The Prime Necromancer · Sat Jul 16, 2005 8:01 pm

Infodump!

Wow, Chris. Very impressive. You took a lot of the stuff from the first attempt, and expanded upon it hugely. I hope this time several of us actually take advantage of it and be something other than bog-standard humans.

Josh · Post by **Josh** » Sun Jul 17, 2005 5:02 am

The Prime Necromancer wrote:I hope this time several of us actually take advantage of it and be something other than bog-standard humans.

I'll admit, I always play a bog-standard human. Just my personal preference.

frigidmagi · Post by **frigidmagi** » Sun Jul 17, 2005 6:43 pm

Service Class: Marine Ãƒâ€šÃ¢â‚¬â€œ a soldier who fights first and hardest.

I'll forgive you Stofsk for the grand crime of calling Marines solders. Just keep in mind Marines are to solders what Wolves are to bulldogs.

Stofsk · Post by **Stofsk** » Mon Jul 18, 2005 2:32 am

Cynical Cat wrote:Let me give one exampe: +2 AC for leathery hide. Sure your thick skin makes it harder to hit you with a rail gun or high energy laser. That's a piece of d20 silliness.

That's a good point.

However, some weapons bypass certain armour types completely.

Example #1 - ACR (Advanced Combat Rifle) with armour piercing rounds. I will have to reread the rulebook to make sure, but they tend to ignore some part of the AC (so in this case, the Chel'noirn +2 to AC due to leathery hide is ignored).

Example #2 - Lasers have a nasty habit of simply punching through anything but the strongest and heaviest armours. To protect against lasers, you need special anti-laser materials. Basically, these are: ablat, reflec, and special aerosols in smoke grenades that scatter the beam. Ablat is worn on top of the armour you're wearing, and burns away when hit by lasers. It doesn't help you with other weapons. Reflec is worn underneath your clothing and again, it doesn't help against other weapons. This is akin to real life, where you can wear a flak jacket which helps you survive a gunfight... but not a knife.

Smoke grenades provide concealment. Cover and concealment is vital in this game during combat.

I know we're you're coming from. D&D tried doing this with the armour descriptions - ie, chainmail helps turn away the point or edge of the sword, but jack against a mace. But I don't recall them actually saying "So if Thork the Ork comes at you with a scimitar then you get the full +4 to AC, but if he wields a mace, you take a -2 penalty."

Stofsk · Post by **Stofsk** » Mon Jul 18, 2005 2:36 am

frigidmagi wrote:From what I can see you went with seperate navies and command sturctures? Is there an overorganization like NATO or UN Peackeeper Command?

The UN has something called 'Peacekeeper Command'? That's awesome. (been watching Farscape lately)

In answer, yes. They have something like Peacekeeper Command or NATO. I haven't worked it out yet. :)

And in answer to your PM, yes you can join.

frigidmagi · Post by **frigidmagi** » Mon Jul 18, 2005 3:07 am

Cool, I best brainstorm a character idea then.

Cynical Cat · Post by **Cynical Cat** » Mon Jul 18, 2005 3:23 am

I'm also coming from Star Wars d20, which also has that Natural Armor silliness. But I will place my trust in you.

Stofsk · Post by **Stofsk** » Wed Jul 20, 2005 5:08 am

Cynical Cat wrote:I'm also coming from Star Wars d20, which also has that Natural Armor silliness. But I will place my trust in you.

I thought about it, and realised that in the old 3.0 DMG they had a variant rule for fights that involved an opposed-defence roll. The assumption was that your AC was a defence roll that you took 10 on (hence why you have 10, then add all the modifiers). The variant roll simply had you roll a d20 + whatever mods that applied.

I think this can actually work better than the usual AC idea. Give each class a defence bonus akin to SW d20 (so soldier classes get the best bonus, while the more low-intensity classes get less of a bonus), add any dex mods or feats that apply, cover and concealment, and fights still retain a more random feel to it.

What do you think?

Stofsk · Post by **Stofsk** » Wed Jul 20, 2005 5:53 am

Note: under the languages for each race, the human language 'Anglic' is hereby replaced (or retyped) as 'Anglo'.

Stofsk · Post by **Stofsk** » Fri Jul 22, 2005 6:13 am

Here's a list of players:

Petro
Cynical Cat
Brother-Captain Gaius
The Prime Necromancer
The Morrigan
Mr Flibble
Frigidmagi

Am I forgetting anybody?

Also I am going to retouch all the fluff and post it in the main gaming forum (The Kitchen Table), as well as other information and references. OCC should be kept in this forum. Obviously this game isn't ready to run yet and won't be for a few more weeks, but a couple of you have gotten some rudimentary character ideas which is always good. I'll be doing dedicated character creation when I get back to Melbourne.

Brother-Captain Gaius · Sun Jul 24, 2005 5:06 pm

Holy jebus, I'm going to have to take an hour or so to just sit down and read through all this -- that a lot of stuff there, Stofsk. I look forward to the game, though like Petro I prefer boring old humans.

Stofsk · Post by **Stofsk** » Tue Jul 26, 2005 3:35 am

I'm letting everyone know that I'm back and slowly recovering from jetlag. But its good to be back in Australia.

Cynical Cat · Post by **Cynical Cat** » Tue Jul 26, 2005 3:46 am

Welcome back, I hope you managing to bring some of the good paprika back with you. Take it easy and post in your own good time.

And like Petro, bog standard human for this game.

Stofsk · Post by **Stofsk** » Tue Jul 26, 2005 3:56 am

The fact I spent a month away from a decent bed plus the fact 24 hours in transit is shit, made me sleep most of the day away, and I'm still tired. Go figure. Anyway, like I said, not that I'm back character creation can begin. No rush btw, I still have work to do with the setting, maps, pictures and so on... just think about who you want to play and so on. And if you any questions, feel free to ask.

Josh · Post by **Josh** » Tue Jul 26, 2005 9:52 am

Hey Chris, welcome back.

Stofsk · Post by **Stofsk** » Sun Jul 31, 2005 4:15 pm

Can I get some idea from people how they're going in regards to creating their character? If anyone has any questions please ask them. If you want information on something, ask me and I'll see about working on another update. As it is, the reference thread has a couple more updates in line.

LibriumArcana.Games

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