Dune novels: great books, or greatest books?

Destructionator XV · Post by **Destructionator XV** » Mon Sep 04, 2006 8:36 pm

Thus far, I have read the first two, quite fast as well, barely pausing in my readings, so much that my eyes are really hurting from looking at the pages so long.

Now, I don't do that much reading of fiction, but this was awesome, and the next couple days, I will almost certainly be spending my last few precious dollars to purchase the remaining books and read them as well.

Herbert's writing style isn't technically perfect, but I really like his style. He not only tells the story; he also adds many extra facts to make the whole universe come more alive. The quotations opening each chapter, the appendixes, the glossary. It all makes it feel alive.

From just the first book, Dune, I have a better feeling for his universe than I do of the entire Star Trek universe. That one book trumps both trilogies of Star Wars in setting up a universe and telling a fascinating tale.

Paul is the kind of guy I can both love and hate at once, but above it all, the poor guy is just trapped, and you can't help but feel sorry for him. I like this kind of character. The political situation in the universe is nicely laid out - one of my favourite settings in any sci-fi I've seen or read.

So I ask you: Frank Herbert's Dune books: great, or greatest?

Batman · Post by **Batman** » Mon Sep 04, 2006 8:54 pm

The term 'neither' comes to mind.

LadyTevar · Post by **LadyTevar** » Mon Sep 04, 2006 8:58 pm

The first two are very great novels... but they rapidly go downhill from there. His son's pitiful attempts to reserrect the francise have only harmed it, from what I am told... I have not bothered to read any past ChapterHouse Dune, the last I believe Herbert wrote on his own.

Destructionator XV · Post by **Destructionator XV** » Mon Sep 04, 2006 8:58 pm

Batman wrote:The term 'neither' comes to mind.

Do you have any specific reasons for that, or care to offer the category where you would put it?

Or should I take your water?!

edit:

LadyTevar wrote:His son's pitiful attempts to reserrect the francise have only harmed it, from what I am told

I, too, have heard those are terrible. The non-Frank stuff means nothing to me.

Batman · Post by **Batman** » Mon Sep 04, 2006 9:03 pm

Destructionator XV wrote:
Batman wrote:The term 'neither' comes to mind.
Do you have any specific reasons for that, or care to offer the category where you would put it?

'Dune' damn near bored me to tears and the sequels didn't do much better. I very much preferred the David Lynch movie AND IM HEARTILY TIrED OF THIS VALENDAMNED HICKUP!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

LadyTevar · Post by **LadyTevar** » Mon Sep 04, 2006 9:05 pm

......................

Bats? Did you just say you LIKED the Lynch movie version?!

Ok, Adam? I think you know where you can file his objections now.

Batman · Post by **Batman** » Mon Sep 04, 2006 9:11 pm

That's a definite yes, m'lady. I'm not saying the Lynch movie was accurate. It sure as Valen was not. It was, however, entertaining. Unlike the novel.

Cynical Cat · Post by **Cynical Cat** » Mon Sep 04, 2006 10:09 pm

They're all overrated.

Destructionator XV · Post by **Destructionator XV** » Mon Sep 04, 2006 10:16 pm

While I am not certain of it, I think Frank Herbert is a Catholic himself, but the role religion plays in the novels is not a pretty one, and certainly significant.

Herbert many times refers to the "superstitious Fremen" in a negative light, and the Jihad is obviously nothing good. Much of the religion in the books are outright told to be forgeries for power and protection: the actions of the Bene Gesserit's Missionaria Protectiva.

Paul doesn't like being a god-king at all, and is looking for a way to escape it. Note that I have not read God-Emperor of Dune, so I don't know the details on how Leto II is handled.

"When politics and religion ride in the same cart, the whirlwind follows."

Anyone have anything to add to the subject of religion in Dune?

Stofsk · Post by **Stofsk** » Mon Sep 04, 2006 11:32 pm

Dune and Dune Messiah were good books, although Messiah is really take it or leave it. Dune itself is a classic and deserved the Hugo it won.

The other Dune books fall into two general categories:

A. Inscrutable (Frank Herbet)

B. Stupid (KJA)

It is really pathetic that KJA's books outnumber Frank Herbert's. I mean really pathetic. About the one thing you can say against Frank Herbert's work is that it's overrated. But there are so many things you can say about KJA's...

Josh · Post by **Josh** » Mon Sep 11, 2006 3:38 pm

The Lynch movie wasn't so bad in comparison to the heaping pile of shit that was the Sci Fi miniseries. The one thing I liked about the miniseries was the more accurate depiction of the stillsuits and the 'Fremen springing from the sand' ambushes.

Something Awesome · Post by **Something Awesome** » Mon Sep 11, 2006 4:50 pm

"Heart-plugs" and the like really just turned me off to Lynch's version. I don't mind the inaccuracies in the Sci-Fi series because they weren't ridiculous like that.

As for the books, I choose "greatest," at least up to God Emperor, and "great" for Heretics and Chapterhouse. Some folks don't like God Emperor's long dialogues, but I found them rather interesting. Leto II is an incredibly complicated character, maybe more so than Paul.

Josh · Post by **Josh** » Mon Sep 11, 2006 5:06 pm

Dune was the best for me. It was a very compelling read, but also tied into Herbert's big weakness in storytelling, because after Dune he fell into the trap of endless, meandering internal dialogues and overly convoluted plots.

He pulled it off once and made it work to good effect, and never quite caught that peak again.

Narsil · Post by **Narsil** » Tue Sep 12, 2006 4:44 am

I haven't read the Dune novels, but from what I've heard... though they are 'great', they are also 'overrated and overly-convoluted'. Especially when works from the likes of Isaac Asimov, Herbert George Wells, Jules Verne, Douglas Adams, Terry Pratchett (he has done Sci-Fi, Strata for example) and Iain M. Banks are out there, readily available, and have plots that you can actually make sense of without having to practically study the novels.

'Greatest books'? That's not really possible. It all boils down to someone's personal opinion at the end of the day, and I'm infinitely more likely to pick up Douglas Adams' The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy or Isaac Asimov's Foundation and Empire than Frank Herbert's Dune. If a plot doesn't appeal to me, I'll probably refrain from reading it.

Narsil · Post by **Narsil** » Tue Sep 12, 2006 4:51 am

Ghetto Edit:

A couple of the above-mentioned authors' works (those two being Verne and Wells) are in the public domain, here's a few handy links:

20,000 Leagues Under the Sea (Verne) [Translated from Verne's native French]
The Mysterious Island (Verne) [Translated from Verne's native French]
The War of the Worlds (Wells)
The Time Machine (Wells)

Stofsk · Post by **Stofsk** » Tue Sep 12, 2006 6:44 am

Petrosjko wrote:Dune was the best for me. It was a very compelling read, but also tied into Herbert's big weakness in storytelling, because after Dune he fell into the trap of endless, meandering internal dialogues and overly convoluted plots.

He pulled it off once and made it work to good effect, and never quite caught that peak again.

Agreed. I liked Dune Messiah as a conclusion to the story, especially where Paul walks out into the desert. But Children of Dune was more or less unreadable for me, and it only got worse as it progressed. (though God Emperor wasn't that bad. Heretics and Chapterhouse? Forget it)

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Dune novels: great books, or greatest books?

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