Are prison planets a good idea?

[Hotfoot]

You know, I just had a thought. How the hell are people getting on this planet? Sure, we can estimate how they get to the star system, but how do they get on the planet itself? Unless it's by transporter, you're going to need some sort of spaceport. Airdrops are unreliable and could kill the prisoner before they even touch down. Plus, the prisoners are always going to massively outnumber the crews of the ships, and there are no restraints. You can see where this is going, yes?

[Comrade Tortoise]

Just a question, but why do convicts have so many rights that you don't seem to want to violate? I mean, we are talking about CONVICTS here.

Because not all convicts are created equal. Even the violent ones. A guy who gets drunk and beats a guy up, is going to go to the same place that Dahmer goes to in this system. Prisons are bad enough, a prison planet with no mechanisms for physically controlling the prisoners, no method for distributing food, and no method for the convicted to appeal their convictions... no

ANd now to rip apart the german

I'm terribly sorry but that's their fault, not mine. If they would rather starve than work together...

Oh, they will work together. But in a very stratified manner. Ok. Here is what a prison planet will form. A bunch of feudal fiefdoms. The initial population will band together into seperate groups based on some arbitrary criteria. Like race, or location. These groups will work together rather well, once they work out their pecking order. This pecking order will probably be enforced by violence rape and the threat of both. The poor schmuck who gets dropped in will either be killed, enslaved, or initiated into this group. Depending on how the arbitrary criteria treats him. Initiation will entail a period of violence and rape. THis may include a system of patronage, where a low ranking member allows himself to become the property of a higher ranking member of the group. In exchange for protection, he would provide labor, and exlcusive sexual services.

I will note that this happens in existing prisons, the only thing that curtails it are physical control mechanisms like doors and locks, and the presence of guards. Both of which a prison planet will lack.

Now, these groups will use the resources in their area. Food will have to be cultivated, but unless they have the technology to do so efficiently (which they wont), they will be pretty damn hungry. ANd hunger brings aggression. This means that in all likelyhood they will need to wage war on other groups to obtain the resources they need to continue their existence.

At the end of this period, you will have regional warlords who control the resources in an area. Under him will be subordinate males who jostle for position and access to these resources for them and their minions.

Assuming the warlords will a)exist and b)have the ability to monopolize the water supply, of course.

See above. Warlords are inevitable.

If they're dead-set on dying from the Plague, let them.

See above. It isnt that the individual feudal lords will be dead set on dying from plague. It is that the infastructure will be hard to maintain when access to water and arrable land is constantly under dispute regardless. Most prisoners will never have a say in any of it.

No. I'm going from mostly ineffective protection to little protection.

No idiot, you are going from sometimes ineffective protection (the prisoners are safe most of the day) to being enslaved to higher ranking members of your local feudal oligarchy, and being raped probably every day, with no recourse save for challenging higher ranking individuals. THe violence will be systemic.

If they can't be arsed to stop fighting each other to start fighting for survival why should I mourn them?

There may be plenty of prisoners who may want to do that, but the fact of the matter is, they wont have a choice. Because the moment they are dropped in, they will be forced into the same horrible conditions by the initial population of socially established inmates. It is like dropping a new baboon raised in the lab into a troupe of wild baboons. He will get eaten alive.

I assume they can be built by the inmates if they work together. If they can't, I'm sorry but that's no great loss to society.

Again, they wont have a choice. The ones who want to work together will be ill-prepared for the neighbors who want their farm land.

All it takes is one asshole.

Which is inevitably going to happen because?

See above. I have explained it.

And how many were no longer there to await that on account of being dead?

No moron, those are the ones who are OUTSIDE OF THE PRISONS. The vast majority of people in our prison system, who arent serving life terms (or defacto life terms) do actually survive to see their release dates. On a prison planet, there wouldnt even be a method of extraction, no way for prisoners to appeal their convictions. ANd if they do get out, if they werent hardened criminals going in, they will be when they get out.

[Stofsk]

I have to disagree Stofsk, the last thing you want to sent to a colony that may not have effective law enforcement is a set of harden criminals.

Which is why I advocate no such thing. The colony would have effective law enforcement, of the 'frontier justice' variety.

I wouldn't call it a civil rights utopia, nor would I consider it a good idea - but I can see it being implemented.

[Stofsk]

You know, I just had a thought. How the hell are people getting on this planet? Sure, we can estimate how they get to the star system, but how do they get on the planet itself? Unless it's by transporter, you're going to need some sort of spaceport.

Well the colony will be an investment so there will be heavy corporate sponsorship. There will be a spaceport, a capital city and central business district, and smaller towns and villages will spring out from that central location as more and more colonists and their families immigrate to the world.

No colony will have a 100% prisoner population. That idea is untenable. What I suggested would be a colony world with a civilian population that has convict 'workfarms' for lack of a better term.

Airdrops are unreliable and could kill the prisoner before they even touch down. Plus, the prisoners are always going to massively outnumber the crews of the ships, and there are no restraints. You can see where this is going, yes?

Yes, but it won't work. Any sensible spacecraft would have a 'crew area' and a 'passenger area' and to get to one and the other would be strictly controlled. Hijacking would also be difficult for that reason plus other countermeasures that could be designed and implemented from the bridge.

And no colony would have a convict population that exceeds that of the civilian population.

Not saying it's a paradise solution. I can see it being done though, if certain assumptions are made about future society.

[Stofsk]

Just a question, but why do convicts have so many rights that you don't seem to want to violate? I mean, we are talking about CONVICTS here.

Because not all convicts are created equal. Even the violent ones. A guy who gets drunk and beats a guy up, is going to go to the same place that Dahmer goes to in this system. Prisons are bad enough, a prison planet with no mechanisms for physically controlling the prisoners, no method for distributing food, and no method for the convicted to appeal their convictions... no

You're completely right. Unfortunately, your kind of attitude is in the minority from what experience I've had in the matter.

Perhaps the 'prison workfarm on the colony' idea works by offering a choice: either plead guilty, accept deportation and work at a chance for a new life, or appeal the sentence and endure months/perhaps even years in the overcrowded prisons of Old Earth.

Given that sort of choice... take away family ties... and maybe the choice if you like doesn't seem so bad.

[Hotfoot]

Well the colony will be an investment so there will be heavy corporate sponsorship. There will be a spaceport, a capital city and central business district, and smaller towns and villages will spring out from that central location as more and more colonists and their families immigrate to the world.

No colony will have a 100% prisoner population. That idea is untenable. What I suggested would be a colony world with a civilian population that has convict 'workfarms' for lack of a better term.

You have to remember, my posts have almost exclusively been dealing with Batman's "Cesspool of Crime" colonies, which are 100% hardcore murders and rapists, which is obviously a completely different scenario from what you're proposing, which, correct me if I'm wrong, involves work groups made up of largely minor offenders working off their sentences through cheap (but not necessarily extremely hard) labor. This isn't a bad idea, as the bulk of the prison population is made up of minor offenders anyway. My only caveat would be that you'd have to take the very dangerous and violent offenders and keep them under much higher security on the colony than the minor offenders. The potential risks to the citizens if a pickpocket or drug abuser escapes are far less severe than if a convicted rapist or murderer manages to get loose.

Yes, but it won't work. Any sensible spacecraft would have a 'crew area' and a 'passenger area' and to get to one and the other would be strictly controlled. Hijacking would also be difficult for that reason plus other countermeasures that could be designed and implemented from the bridge.

And no colony would have a convict population that exceeds that of the civilian population.

Not saying it's a paradise solution. I can see it being done though, if certain assumptions are made about future society.

You can see how it would be a legitimate concern in a prison planet made up of hundreds of millions of violent offenders who have had decades to make their own weapons, which is the solution Bats provided. Of course, what you're suggesting really isn't a prison planet, but rather a normal colony where a portion of the workforce is supplemented by convicted criminals of one sort or another, which is much more reasonable.