Phoenix War III OOC / signup

[Kreshna Aryaguna Nurzaman]

What you will be seeing from the A'millians are going to be capships focus firing, ground cannons firing, and "we surrender" being transmitted. There will be next to no fighter combat at all.

You know Adam, there are times when I really hate you.

EDIT: and yes, I watched Top Gun yesterday.

[Destructionator XV]

I think this might warrant a thread in the science fiction forum. I can think of no good reason to use fighters at all (and I need a reason to have them, so I must ponder something). Anywho:

Zerg scourge might be close to fighter combat though, but then again, maybe not, since they are just large groups of suicide units. DesertFly's call there, of course.

I don't think Death Gliders are used often in Stargate Goa'uld capship engagements either; they are generally used for air or ground targetting attacks. The only time I can think of Gliders being used in space is to counter the far superior Tau'ri F-302, who can dodge point defence and take down the Hatak on their own thanks to missiles.

Again, of course, Ra may choose to entirely change that. It is his decision.

But, it looks to me as if having a Top Gun thing happen is pretty improbable. There is one way though: does your Death Star have an exaust port about two metres wide, right below the main port, that leads directly to the main reactor? If so, would a precise hit, and only a precise hit, from a proton torpedo set off a chain reaction, destroying the station?

If yes, I will use snub fighters against it, and they will be too fast for your turbolasers, so you will have to take them ship to ship.

Attacking that battlestation ain't my idea of courage, kid. More like suicide... and as I pointed out, fighters are good for suicide.

[Ra]

I mainly use Death Gliders in the CAS role, and to counter other fighters, pretty much like they were used in the movie and SG-1. The only time I recal using Gliders against capships was when I was using kamikazi tactics in the Battle of A'millian Prime; I also used Ha'taks with overloading reactors in that same role, but that's beside the point. Normally, I have my Ha'taks go against the capships, or call in the Al'kesh bombers.

[Kreshna Aryaguna Nurzaman]

But, it looks to me as if having a Top Gun thing happen is pretty improbable. There is one way though: does your Death Star have an exaust port about two metres wide, right below the main port, that leads directly to the main reactor? If so, would a precise hit, and only a precise hit, from a proton torpedo set off a chain reaction, destroying the station?

Nope. Remember it is a Death Star II- type. I doesn't have such weaknesses.

But I think it's kinda fun if we have a thread in sci-fi forum asking the feasibility of fighters in space.

I mainly use Death Gliders in the CAS role, and to counter other fighters, pretty much like they were used in the movie and SG-1.

*cues Top Gun theme song*

[Destructionator XV]

Nope. Remember it is a Death Star II- type. I doesn't have such weaknesses.

Oh well, I'll just have to nuke it from the inside.

But I think it's kinda fun if we have a thread in sci-fi forum asking the feasibility of fighters in space.

Before we start a new thread, take a look at this thread, currently active over on SDN:
http://bbs.stardestroyer.net/viewtopic. ... sc&start=0

They are talking about space combat in a hard sci fi situation, but what they are saying makes sense. There is a pretty big fighter discussion a little into the thread.

[Kreshna Aryaguna Nurzaman]

Nope. Remember it is a Death Star II- type. I doesn't have such weaknesses.

Oh well, I'll just have to nuke it from the inside.

You did. Don't expect to do the same thing again. Hah!

[Destructionator XV]

We do need a way to get rid of the Death Star. Its presence just tips the balance, always, and if we are going for PW IV to be basically a clean slate with relativily equal powers, it has to go.

Nuking it from the inside again is a plan (now that there is a giant hole in the side, a bomb might be slipped through there), or another one is say there are more Destructionator agents who sabotauged the super laser so when it tries to fire, it backfires, destroying the station.

There was that Destructionator agent disguised as a cleaning droid who could have had oppourtunity, or perhaps an agent found his way into the team reparing it after the first bomb who did the deed.

Any of those sound good?

[Kreshna Aryaguna Nurzaman]

We do need a way to get rid of the Death Star. Its presence just tips the balance, always, and if we are going for PW IV to be basically a clean slate with relativily equal powers, it has to go.

Then PW IV will go without the Empire, since Imperial tech, firepower, and industrial scale clearly outclasses others. However, if that's the case, then it won't be "Phoenix" War anymore, unless for some reason Darth Kreshna decides to take up a Goa'uld citizenship or such.

Nuking it from the inside again is a plan (now that there is a giant hole in the side, a bomb might be slipped through there), or another one is say there are more Destructionator agents who sabotauged the super laser so when it tries to fire, it backfires, destroying the station.

There was that Destructionator agent disguised as a cleaning droid who could have had oppourtunity, or perhaps an agent found his way into the team reparing it after the first bomb who did the deed.

Any of those sound good?

Oh, please. I know we're playing a fictitious game here, but do you really think it is believable that an A'millan agent will manage to pass all the Death Star's security, plant a bomb or easily sabotage the superlaser, without being caught? By that logic, Al-Qaeda terrorist can easily destroy the White House by now. Even assassinating a President is not that easy, let alone destroying/sabotaging a military installation.

[Destructionator XV]

Then PW IV will go without the Empire, since Imperial tech, firepower, and industrial scale clearly outclasses others.

The Empire is going to cease to exist as soon as one of us starts using WMDs, so that is a non issue.

Oh, please. I know we're playing a fictitious game here, but do you really think it is believable that an A'millan agent will manage to pass all the Death Star's security, plant a bomb or easily sabotage the superlaser, without being caught?

It already happened once.

By that logic, Al-Qaeda terrorist can easily destroy the White House by now. Even assassinating a President is not that easy, let alone destroying/sabotaging a military installation.

That is the most absurd non-sequitur I have seen all day! US defences have nothing to do with Death Star security, which is open to the public, has civilians wandering almost freely, and all of us have technology to blast it to nothingness with a single bomb.

A suicide cargo ship with a Terran Mk IX gatebuster would mean the end of the Death Star (a plan I almost like...)

[Dartzap]

This mission is getting more confusing by the hour!

[Ra]

A suicide cargo ship with a Terran Mk IX gatebuster would mean the end of the Death Star (a plan I almost like...)

Heh, I still have that Tel'tak with a whole load of the damn things. Just ask.

[Destructionator XV]

This mission is getting more confusing by the hour!

Your plan sucks, dude. In the Milky Way, they have one base: starbase 242. If you want to hit another one of their holdings, that would mean getting a fleet near the home galaxy, where you would be up against state militias and Federal defense garrisons. No one would be redeployed from 242.

In fact, a large battle fleet massing near the home galaxy would probably bring the Federal Forces to DEFCON 3, and the whole bloody nation will be preparing for hell. (Note that as soon as Adam gets out of that meeting, he is going to send a message back home "Imperial invasion imminent" which would bring them immediately to DEFCON 1, so maximum readiness is going to be happening soon anyway)

By the way, they are currently at DEFCON 5: A'millian Prime is still operating under the assumption that they are in peacetime.

Just ask.

Oh, I will.

[Dartzap]

One base? for the love of cheese wathers! you really an arse sometimes! How the frag am I meant to sort this out?

[Destructionator XV]

One base? for the love of cheese wathers! you really an arse sometimes!

Even if there was a second base, it would have its own defences. If you are going to attack, you'll just have to attack.

I have explained in some detail what is at that base however:
http://libriumarcana.com/phpBB2/viewtop ... 6066#56066

At that point, we still had a mining facility and some forces at I-1071, but they have been ordered to return to base. The mining base folk would have just stargatted out, being a tiny naquadah mine (we wanted some for study). The ships from 1071 though should be en-route now, or picking up their gear and preparing to move out if you really wanted to intercept them.

Keep in mind though that I-1071 is a Goa'uld world.

[Kreshna Aryaguna Nurzaman]

The Empire is going to cease to exist as soon as one of us starts using WMDs, so that is a non issue.

How can any nations of mere hundreds planet has the capacity to produce enough WMD to wipe out a nation of twelve million planets? And that's assuming that the bigger nation just sitting there, without using their own WMD, and without attempting to defend or retaliate whatsoever. I think the WMD concept is over wanked. Yes, WMD does hurt, but the principle of size and scale still apply, and that's how things work in the real world. That's also why Iran could not make the United States "cease to exist", despite the fact they have nuclear facilities now.

That is the most absurd non-sequitur I have seen all day! US defences have nothing to do with Death Star security, which is open to the public, has civilians wandering almost freely, nd all of us have technology to blast it to nothingness with a single bomb.

Based on your last post, it took a number of bomb that only take a small portion of the Death Star. A'millan explosives managed to blast a hole of ten kilometers in diameter, which is only 1/21600 of the Death Star's volume (its diameter is 600 kilometers), and that was in Metro District, which is mostly unshielded and made of less durable materials (except you really believe that the Kubika Lounge or Sith Grand Palace were built like bunkers; blast doors and the likes).

So in order to "blast it to nothingness", you need to deliver 216000 times more explosives into the Death Star. Alright, let's be generous and assume that the A'millans have a more powerful explosives which is 100 times stronger, you still need to deliver 2160 more amount of explosives compared to the original. And of course, that's assuming the Death Star will not increase its security after the first bombing, which is ridiculous.

Or let say that the A'millan can place the explosives on the Death Star's reactor (like in ROTJ, where destroying the reactor also destroyed the battle station), but how the A'millan terrorist would ever reach the reactor on the first place? They have successfully bombed the Metro District, which was basically a city-like area (Kubika Lounge, Grand Palace, etc) where civilians can freely roam on. However, assuming that the reactor area (or the superlaser area) is as open as the Metro District is ridiculous. Just because civilians freely roam the New York City it doesn't mean they can freely roam inside the Fort Knox.

And besides, after the first bombing, it would be ridiculous to assume that the Death Star won't increase its security. The A'millans have managed to smuggle the bombs at the first time, do you really think that the Death Star won't increase its security? Consider the US paranoia after 9-11 (to the point that a retired general cannot bring his Congressional Medal of Honor to the airplane, because it resembles a shuriken), and you know what I mean.

A suicide cargo ship with a Terran Mk IX gatebuster would mean the end of the Death Star (a plan I almost like...)

And how the suicide cargo ship will bypass the Death Star security? Do you really think it is THAT easy for terrorist organization to smuggle the bombs into the target country? No, it is NOT. That's why bombing attack (like London bombing) can take months (or at least weeks) to prepare. They need to smuggle the explosive components, they need to assemble those components into the bombs, they need to train the suicide bombers, among other things. And that's assuming they are not getting caught while doing so.

The first bombing was already wanking, because it implied that it was THAT easy to smuggle bombs into the Death Star (try smuggling bombs into the US and you know what I mean). However, that was still acceptable because we can always attribute to the fact that the diplomatic immunity of A'millan officials would have make such things easier (Imperial costums officials did not scan the cargo due to diplomatic immunity). But after the first bombing, do you really believe the Empire will repeat the same mistakes?

[Destructionator XV]

How can any nations of mere hundreds planet has the capacity to produce enough WMD to wipe out a nation of twelve million planets?

How many of those are useless shitholes like Tatooine? The devices will be deployed on the most significant targets, lobbing the head off the Empire and crippling a portion of their infrastructure faster than you can say "collateral damage".

In the disarray with their government being vapourized, the power vacuum will lead to in-fighting which will be even more destructive.

And that's assuming that the bigger nation just sitting there, without using their own WMD, and without attempting to defend or retaliate whatsoever.

First, we wouldn't actually deploy these doomsday devices until their is no other choice, so by the time that happens, we have already lost.

Hence the term "Mutually Assured Destruction". The moment anyone starts to use them, everyone is dead.

That also plays nicely with the desire of the game to end in armageddon so we can play a clean slate post-apocalyptic PW IV.

That's also why Iran could not make the United States "cease to exist", despite the fact they have nuclear facilities now.

Suppose they could deliver megaton devices to Washington, New York, Los Angeles, Chicago, Dallas and Redmond all at once.

The United States's ability to project military and economic power would be greatly reduced, making them no longer a superpower over night. That is what I am talking about.

Based on your last post, it took a number of bomb that only take a small portion of the Death Star.

That was also a small enough explosive to smuggle aboard in hand held canisters. We have planet killer bombs, as were a major part of my own plot section in "Ra Goes on a Killing Spree". These would be orders of magnitude more powerful than a tiny cylinder of antimatter. Or, the Mark IX gatebusters Ra has are possibly in the teraton range, and would cause a fireball hundreds of kilometres in size itself (see Beachhead [SG-1] for an example of this fireball being huge, even when seen from space), which would certainly hit the central reactor and cause secondary explosions, destroying the station.

but how the A'millan terrorist would ever reach the reactor on the first place?

They don't have to with a large enough explosion. Sit in a docking port and detonate the device.

And I prefer the term 'freedom fighter'.

And besides, after the first bombing, it would be ridiculous to assume that the Death Star won't increase its security.

Unless they are letting nothing at all even dock with it, it doesn't matter. The weapons we would use here are so ridiculusly powerful that even from the outer sections they would blow it to hell.

That's why bombing attack (like London bombing) can take months (or at least weeks) to prepare.

These guys also aren't professionals with the full backing of multiple great power nations. Dock, detonate, game over.

The first bombing was already wanking, because it implied that it was THAT easy to smuggle bombs into the Death Star (try smuggling bombs into the US and you know what I mean).

Act of plot, too. If that didn't occur, nothing would have happened this game at all, except for bloodthirsty Imperials killing some Zerg. How fun!

And another act of plot is going to have to kill that battlestation. You can't just sit there with an unstoppable station. The game is unbalanced enough with the mere presence of the Galactic Empire (complete with EU wanknology, no less), and an unstoppable Death Star is absurd. Sometimes sacrifices have to be made for the greater plot.

[Kreshna Aryaguna Nurzaman]

Alright, let's be generous and assume that 90% of Imperial planets are backwater, which only 10% are important. That is still 1,2 millions. A nation of 160 planets threatening MAD to a nation of 1,2 millions of planets.

But alright, let's make a highly ridiculous assumption that 99 % of Imperial planets are Tatooine-level. That is still 120,000 planets vs 160 planets. It is like Singapore trying to cause MAD on PRC.

Unless they are letting nothing at all even dock with it, it doesn't matter. The weapons we would use here are so ridiculusly powerful that even from the outer sections they would blow it to hell.

Second, I don't know if "Ra Goes On Killing Spree" is considered canon in Phoenix War continutity, but if planet-killing bombs are common among the A'millans / Goa'ulds, then it contradicts everything in the whole Phoenix War story. For instance, if the A'millans really have such destructive power, why bother maintaining phasers on its ships? A scaled-down version of the PK as torpedo warhead would make A'millan phasers obsolete. If Ra can mass-produce such ridiculously powerful explosive, then why bother with the Guardian on Tais II?

Look, I know we are playing a fictitious game here, but at least try to maintain a sense of believability. This is, after all, an STGOD, not a plain "wank-it-all" TGOD. The A'millan bombs on the Death Star (10 km damage radius stored in small cylinders) were already inconsistent with the A'millan firepower depicted throughout the entire Phoenix War continuity. If such things are common in the A'millan Star Empire, they would have slaughtered the Borg, the Guardians, etc.

Further exaggeration of this would degenerate the Phoenix War into a TGOD (without S).


EDIT

These guys also aren't professionals with the full backing of multiple great power nations. Dock, detonate, game over.

No offense, dude, but this is wanking to the worst level. Terrorist are professional. Of course they're a bunch of suicidal fanatics, but they're also highly trained and skilled, with the full backing of a rich international organization (Al-Qaeda). Dr. Hambali, a Malaysian terrorist who had been nailed by Indonesian police force, is an example of a terrorist with a pro-level skill of assembling a bomb.

Let's assume that A'millan freedom fighters are more skillful than Al-Qaeda terrorist (and remember, Al-Qaeda terrorists are not amateur either), there are still limits on how such professionality can help a 160 planets nation to cause MAD on 12 million planets nation.

The British SAS kicks ass, but I'd like to see a squad of British SAS taking down the entire US.

Suppose they could deliver megaton devices to Washington, New York, Los Angeles, Chicago, Dallas and Redmond all at once.

I'm not a military guy, but I'm almost certain they could not. Even if Iran can still manage to produce sufficient amount of nukes, there is still problem of delivering them. How are they supposed to bring the nukes to the US land? Smuggling them in backpacks?

[Destructionator XV]

Second, I don't know if "Ra Goes On Killing Spree" is considered canon in Phoenix War continutity,

No it is not. Recall RGOAKS ended with Lord Adam's death.

But I did maintain full consistancy with my nation's capabilities (indeed, that presentation was far closer to what they would actually do than PW1 ever was).

but if planet-killing bombs are common among the A'millans / Goa'ulds, then it contradicts everything in the whole Phoenix War story.

The Goa'uld can't manufacture it themselves; they have a boat load of stolen Earth bombs.

Though Goa'uld bombs aren't that bad themselves, as seen in one of the Aschen episodes IIRC.

For instance, if the A'millans really have such destructive power, why bother maintaining phasers on its ships?

If the US have such destructive power in their nuclear arsenal, why bother maintaining traditional guns and missiles on their ships?

Why not use tactical nukes for everything? Aside from the political concerns of going nuts like that, it would also be very expensive, and frankly, overkill.

The A'millan bombs on the Death Star (10 km damage radius stored in small cylinders) were already inconsistent with the A'millan firepower depicted throughout the entire Phoenix War continuity.

Simply untrue. I calculated the numbers and effects from real science; what would happen if a few kilograms of antimatter were to react completely with an equal mass of matter. A kilogram isn't that big volume wise, but huge energy wise (e = mc^2), and a 500 megaton explosion would actually have more damage than that.


Basically, what you saw is what ten photon torpedoes would do if the Star Trek writers and special effects people knew anything about firepower.


Scaling up from there gets more destructive (and more expensive to build) in a linear scale. Add naquadah and its known amplification properties to the mix and the scale becomes quadratic or more. And, yes, they would know about Naquadah considering how important it is to the Stargate universe and Starbase 242 wasn't build overnight. We would have seen it and studied it, just like the Terrans did.

Terrorist are professional.

These are the same morons who file the sights off their guns thinking Allah will guide their bullets to the infidels.

Dr. Hambali, a Malaysian terrorist who had been nailed by Indonesian police force, is an example of a terrorist with a pro-level skill of assembling a bomb.

Sure, they have some experts, otherwise they would be entirely irrelevant, but compared to the thousands or more experts an interstellar nation would have on hand for the job?

A more accurate comparison would be if Great Britain or France as whole nations decided they wanted to hurt the US.

there is still problem of delivering them.

Well, that is the real world concern. In the in game universe, we have a delivery method consisting of a hyperspace ship reemerging into realspace right next to the planet and detonating the payload. At least the first volley would get through before the Empire has a chance to develop and deploy countermeasures.

[Kreshna Aryaguna Nurzaman]

Do the math, Adam. The Corporate Sector Authority alone has well over 30,000 planets. The Empire will destroy the A'millan Star Empire's 160 planets way faster than A'millan terrorists making a noticeable dent in the Empire.

As for the bomb, I still accept a 500 megaton explosive would cause such heavy casualties (civilian casualties) on the Death Star, but simply because it was denotated from the inside (especially since it was a city area), but a 500 megaton explosion won't put a dent on a Star Destroyer's shield, let alone the Death Star.

If the US have such destructive power in their nuclear arsenal, why bother maintaining traditional guns and missiles on their ships?

Why not use tactical nukes for everything? Aside from the political concerns of going nuts like that, it would also be very expensive, and frankly, overkill.

The A'millans didn't bother to use the antimatter bomb despite being slaughtered by the Borg. It didn't even bother to use the antimatter bomb against Unicron, who was going to destroy the motherfucking A'millan Prime, so I stand by my argument that such weapon is exotically rare in the A'millan Star Empire.

Well, that is the real world concern. In the in game universe, we have a delivery method consisting of a hyperspace ship reemerging into realspace right next to the planet and detonating the payload. At least the first volley would get through before the Empire has a chance to develop and deploy countermeasures.

<sigh> The Empire can detect fleet in Hyperspace, as well as yanking them out with their artificial gravity well generators.

[Destructionator XV]

Do the math, Adam. The Corporate Sector Authority alone has well over 30,000 planets. The Empire will destroy the A'millan Star Empire's 160 planets way faster than A'millan terrorists making a noticeable dent in the Empire.

We sure would kill some of those civilians though. Coruscant alone would be equal casualities for every citizen of the A'millian Star Empire.

I am not stupid enough to think we could win. The point is to make you bleed for it. Maybe make you bleed enough so your commanders feel that killing a few xenos aren't worth the losses.

But moot point now anyway. Dark Silver has withdrawn the Empire from the game. Kreshna's forces are on their own.

let alone the Death Star

That is why all my plans are for detonating it inside the docking bay.

The A'millans didn't bother to use the antimatter bomb despite being slaughtered by the Borg.

Against what Borg target? It would have been a waste to use it on their cubes, and we had no static target.

It didn't even bother to use the antimatter bomb against Unicron,

That thing surprised us, so we didn't have time to prepare and deploy the weapon. It is a doomsday device, not standard equipment.

who was going to destroy the motherfucking A'millan Prime

A'millian Prime is almost irrelevant. The whole planet has a population of under 30,000.

<edit> Moreover, detonating such a device that close to the planet would have not been a Good Thing anyway due to collateral damage.</edit>

The only things of worth on it is a minor starship design lab, the Royal Academy, and of course the king's residence, which also houses the Elite Knights when they are not on assignment.

If it were to disappear, it would have no significant effect on the nation as a whole. It only has sentimental value to the emperor and the other survivors who were born there.

so I stand by my argument that such weapon is exotically rare in the A'millan Star Empire.

Indeed. At most they have one hundred of them. Again, we would not win the war, we would make you bleed for it.

The Empire can detect fleet in Hyperspace, as well as yanking them out with their artificial gravity well generators.

Does that work with Stargate style hyperdrives? (that is an important question to ask because we need to know if Interdictors will work on Ra's ships. I would argue no, since Stargate ships have been seen flying through planets while under hyperdrive with no ill effects).


<edit 2>I have had enough of this. The whole point of WMDs are two fold: 1) deterrant and 2) plot device to get rid of the hideously unbalanced Empire. #2 was accomplished by Dark Silver making them isolationist, and he reaffirmed this in his latest post. The whole discussion is moot.

Shall we just agree to that and be done with it?</edit 2>

[Kreshna Aryaguna Nurzaman]

<edit 2>I have had enough of this. The whole point of WMDs are two fold: 1) deterrant and 2) plot device to get rid of the hideously unbalanced Empire. #2 was accomplished by Dark Silver making them isolationist, and he reaffirmed this in his latest post. The whole discussion is moot.

Shall we just agree to that and be done with it?</edit 2>

As long as there won't be any further terrorist attack or overwanked freedom fighters (that can sneak with impunity, simply bypassing the security despite such thing is absurd in the real world), that's fine.

[Destructionator XV]

As long as there won't be any further terrorist attack

And there shall be no more Empire either. Kreshna's fiefdom is yours, but nothing else from the Empire's home galaxy at all. As far as I, and everyone else shall be concerned, it no longer exists, just like the Borg. (Their new policy would also put a cap on Ra's corporation too, something I would be willing to accept if he is)

That can also naturally flow into a limit on the Death Star: lacking further support from home, the number of times it can fire the super laser or go through hyperspace becomes limited (the fiefdom cannot provide enough fuel to it or something). Thus if you use it too much, it just wastes away your fuel, a resource that will be limited now. If it runs out of fuel, it is just a giant immobile artificial moon.

With that, play balance shall be restored. The fiefdom is a decent force on its own, but it cannot stand against everyone else united against it.

Seem reasonable?

edit: with that, I'm off to bed. See ya in 9 hours

[Kreshna Aryaguna Nurzaman]

That can also naturally flow into a limit on the Death Star: lacking further support from home, the number of times it can fire the super laser or go through hyperspace becomes limited (the fiefdom cannot provide enough fuel to it or something). Thus if you use it too much, it just wastes away your fuel, a resource that will be limited now. If it runs out of fuel, it is just a giant immobile artificial moon.

Um, actually the reason the Empire went to the still-virgin Milky Way galaxy (the begining of PW i) was natural resources. Widely unexplored, the Milky Way still has a lot of unexploited resources.

But that won't matter anymore: Darth Kreshna was going to resign, and if the Empire let him to keep his personal Death Star, he's going to turn it to the largest brothel in the Milky Way. Everyone is welcomed, except the Egyptian boy who calls himself Supreme System Lord Ra.

[Destructionator XV]

he's going to turn it to the largest brothel in the Milky Way. Everyone is welcomed,

I'm afraid I'm married, and happily so too.

Funny fact, Lord Adam is a 1,922 (at the time of PW III) year old virgin.

Those biological A'millians are a strange bunch. A real coversation they might have:

"Care to partake in sexual intercourse?"
"Let me finish mapping this beetle's genome first."

No wonder they are extinct.

[Ra]

Yeah, no wonder.