Grid discussion (split from stagnation)

[Narsil]

Doesn't sound all that different from what we did with nuclear tech, just took them longer. I would call it evolutionary not revolutionary.

It's not quite the same, the grid is a field of infinite energy and power, essentially harnessing it into workable energy that doesn't act as a pure weapon requires a revolution in and of itself. It's not a 'process' but merely an energy source.

A better example would be going from being able to create fire and collect water to harnessing steam power.

[frigidmagi]

It's not quite the same, the grid is a field of infinite energy and power, essentially harnessing it into workable energy that doesn't act as a pure weapon requires a revolution in and of itself. It's not a 'process' but merely an energy source.

Using an field of infinite energy as a power source? Gosh that's insane! Not helping your case at all, man. Actually it makes greater sense to use a power source then a complex process like fission or fusion as a means of powering civilization.

[Narsil]

The process, however, for using it as a power source would take quite a bit of doing. I mean, if it loses containment (entirely plausible) you no longer have a ship anymore, and you're probably going to lose whatever was next to it as well. I didn't at all say that it was foolish to use it as a power source, I said it would be quite different to use as a power source than a weapon, and would require quite a few technological overhauls simply for containment purposes.

[frigidmagi]

This is sounding more and more like nuclear power and weapons to me.

[Narsil]

I still think it's closer to going from using fire to burn something to steam-powered turbines myself. It's going from the discovery of how to mine coal to the fully working steam engine. The grid is just the source of the power, not a weapon in and of itself (though it can be used as one), learning to harness it as anything other than a weapon is a whole different ballgame. The process for accessing the grid was there, but there was nothing else that they could do with it.

[frigidmagi]

Everything you descirbed is more akin to the nuclear weapon-nuclear power plant development. I have to say you're little off and I wonder if your personal views on nuclear weapons aren't coloring things.

[Narsil]

Water is a source, a waterwheel is a device. The grid is a source, the power core is a device. A nuclear weapon is already a working device with moving parts and everything; it's just being channelled into another device.

[frigidmagi]

The device devires it's power from fission, which is a source. A steam engine is a device, much like a nuclear power plant.

[Narsil]

Sorry, you might have misread that. Accessing the grid to using it as power generation is going from possession of water and fire (a very basic source) to the steam engine (a device). Not an atom bomb (a device) to a nuclear reactor (another device). Gridfire use as a weapon is essentially a much, much, much bigger version of throwing a clump of iron ore at someone.

[frigidmagi]

That may be so, however your own words lead me to believe that using the natural occurence of Gridfire isn't that much different then learning to use fission or fusion which is also a natural occurence (hint look outside when it's daylight, look up and observe the big yellow ball of burning hydrogen we call the sun).

[Batman]

Okay, take this with a not inconsiderable amount of salt becasue I a)can't read Narsils mind and b)have never read any of the Culture novels but what I think Narsil is trying to get at that while bot fission bombs and fission reactors create fission (not the basic process as such but a particular instance of it happening) while the Grid is ALWAYS there and is simply tapped, thus his water anology. What I do NOT understand is how Gridfire at least by his interpretation (as I understood it) is NOT a device. You'd have to manipulate/harness/channel the Grid in some fashion to weaponize it thus making the Gridfire enactors devices, which in turn supports frigid's theory of Grid-based power generation being an evolutionary, not revolutionary development.
Let's say the grid is, indeed, like water. Wether you use a water wheel to generate power or a water cannon as a weapon, they're both devices. The mere existance of water isn't going to work as a weapon NOR a power source. You have to manipulate it in some way, which requires devices.

Mind you,I might be dead wrong.

[Narsil]

Batman is half-right. There is a device to access the grid, but consider it more analagous to a slingshot. You can access water with devices (like, say... an aqueduct), but you can't suddenly develop steam power with it, can you? The grid is, while weaponised, literally opening up a portal into the grid itself. The grid is a field of infinite energy that exists between universes (makes inter-universe travel rather difficult, but it makes a bloody brilliant weapon when it is used.) The water analogy is a little bit off, but there's a really big step between use of the grid as a weapon, and use as a power source because of how it works. The grid isn't changed in any way to become a weapon; it needs to be toned down and carefully controlled to be used as a power source, which is bloody difficult because it could very well destroy your ship.

(hint look outside when it's daylight, look up and observe the big yellow ball of burning hydrogen we call the sun).

That's not a good example. We've not been able to understand what the sun is until the first half of the twentieth century, out of a much longer history of the human race.

[frigidmagi]

We also didn't know about Fission or Fusion until about that time.

Even then, the whether or not we knew what the sun was, it does not change the basic nature of the thing. The example fits perfectly because the Sun is a natural example of the nuclear process, which is excaltly what I was pointing out.

[Narsil]

You're missing the basic point, and moving the goalpost, but we'll get to that later... harnessing the grid for a power source and using it as a weapon are two completely different things. The grid isn't a process, it's a source... harnessing the grid for a power source requires a radically different implementation. Using the grid as a weapon is essentially just opening a small portal to an infinite energy field right on top of your enemy, basic brute force at its best. As a logical move: using the grid to power your ship would need a completely different process than anything even close to that because you'd just blow your ship up.

Similar in the beginning phases, certainly, but there's no difference between collecting water to drink it or collecting it to power your steam turbine at the end of the day. Source is the same, implementation is completely different.

As for your moving of the goalposts: you're changing your example, nukes to nuclear reactors requires that we make a reaction (and you later changed to the sun, so please make up your mind on that point; since the sun very well suits my point, not yours), the grid just reacts as a weapon when it's summoned into realspace or hyperspace or wherever the Culture decides to attack; you need to actually do something with it in order to use it to power a ship. I said going from fire and water to the steam engine; which was a much more effective analogy.

[SirNitram]

You're missing the basic point, and moving the goalpost, but we'll get to that later... harnessing the grid for a power source and using it as a weapon are two completely different things.

Why am I not surprised Narsil is talking out of his ass?

Grid energy, as observed, is not uber-exotic. This means that to tap into that energy, the functional differences from the weapon are:

1) Scale. It must be less intense or it'd simply carve up the ship.

2) Duration. The tap must remain active longer.

Your idiotic idea that it 'acts like a weapon' is yet another reminder that, to put it lightly, you're a complete moron. The Grid energy we see summoned reacts as merely intense energy, acting as intense energy should. This energy can be harvested, like, oh, the intense levels of energy in a fusion reaction.

I have no doubt you'll now bluster and bullshit at me, but fundamentally, you're talking out of your ass, so shut up.

[Batman]

You're missing the basic point, and moving the goalpost, but we'll get to that later... harnessing the grid for a power source and using it as a weapon are two completely different things. The grid isn't a process, it's a source... harnessing the grid for a power source requires a radically different implementation.

As per your say so and newsflash, SO DOES FISSION. In a fission reactor you definitely do NOT want a critical/supercritical mass and try your level best to SUPRESS a runaway fission reaction. In a fission bomb,
you do your level best to CREATE a critical/supercritical mass and a runaway fission reaction.
'Exact opposite' DOES sound radically different to me.

Using the grid as a weapon is essentially just opening a small portal to an infinite energy field right on top of your enemy, basic brute force at its best.

Fission bomb, anybody?

As a logical move: using the grid to power your ship would need a completely different process than anything even close to that because you'd just blow your ship up.

Fission reactor, anybody?

Similar in the beginning phases, certainly, but there's no difference between collecting water to drink it or collecting it to power your steam turbine at the end of the day. Source is the same, implementation is completely different.

Yes, because the steam engine requires the introduction of another 'source'. Namely, heat. The Grid (from what I gathered at least) does NOT.
You tap the Grid for Gridfire, you do so for the Grid-based power plant. Unless you have to also tap the Warp to heat the Grid for power production?

As for your moving of the goalposts: you're changing your example, nukes to nuclear reactors requires that we make a reaction

As I noted. Doesn't change the base similarities between harnessing fission and harnessing the Grid.

(and you later changed to the sun, so please make up your mind on that point; since the sun very well suits my point, not yours)

Like hell it does. Frigid mentioned the sun to show that fusion is NOT something that mankind has to create, it happens naturally. Yes, it is something that has to be triggered unlike the Grid which apparently is always there but once it HAS been triggered I fail to see why HARNESSING the energy (or not bothering to in the weaponized implementation) should be fundamentally different from modern day nukes/thermonukes.

, the grid just reacts as a weapon when it's summoned into realspace or hyperspace or wherever the Culture decides to attack;

With I very much suspect limited (if immense) effects. IOW the energy released is somehow controlled.

you need to actually do something with it in order to use it to power a ship.

Yeah. Control the energy realeased. Same as with the weapon, only with more strict margins.

I said going from fire and water to the steam engine; which was a much more effective analogy.

No it wasn't because if the Grid represents water, fire is represented by...?

[Narsil]

The grid is a source of energy. Harvesting it for ship use requires at least a massive evolution of how you access it. I was indeed mistaken, and concede the earlier point, and it is closer to the nuclear bomb analogy, but it's not close enough to be exactly the same thing. My point was that the grid is just the source of the energy; and accessing it with any form of difference in intensity would require the development of a completely new technology in its own right. You're opening a portal into literally infinite energy, how do you manage to slow it down?

[SirNitram]

The grid is a source of energy. Harvesting it for ship use requires at least a massive evolution of how you access it.

Bullshit. As I said, it simply requires a smaller 'hole' that lasts longer. Hell, the harvesting can be done in the most primitive of fashions, one Nature itself can do: Steam(Or don't you know about natural fission reactors?). Of course, I expect the Culture uses superconducting materials like our plans for fusion cores, but.

I was indeed mistaken, and concede the earlier point, and it is closer to the nuclear bomb analogy, but it's not close enough to be exactly the same thing. My point was that the grid is just the source of the energy; and accessing it with any form of difference in intensity would require the development of a completely new technology in its own right.

Lets repeat that word again. Bullshit. Prove it.

You're opening a portal into literally infinite energy, how do you manage to slow it down?

Smaller hole, duh. The same way we can have a faucet deliver less than the maximum amount of water it's connected to.

So, in conclusion, yes, you're full of shit. Take your ignorance elsewhere and dismount your high horse.

[Ra]

Since this thing has devolved into a Culture debate, may we get a split? The original discussion Adam presented about stagnation in civilizations has been lost.

[Destructionator XV]

Split from here. Carry on.

[Narsil]

I'll concede that it's actually quite a simple thing to manage, since I hadn't been thinking of it the right way. But I don't think that it's going to be a smaller hole being left open over a longer period of time... it's still going to be infinite energy and more than you could handle...

If anything, it needs to be the smaller hole being opened for a small period of time. Harvest that energy. Then rinse and repeat throughout the day at regular intervals... and thus you have developed an everlasting source of power and resources. Of course the latter is only managable if the Culture has indeed mastered the art of 'energy-to-matter conversion', as is indicated by the Sleeper Service building a whole starfleet of about 90,000 ships in secret without stocking up on resources (nobody was suspicious that it was building anything).

[Batman]

I'll concede that it's actually quite a simple thing to manage, since I hadn't been thinking of it the right way. But I don't think that it's going to be a smaller hole being left open over a longer period of time... it's still going to be infinite energy and more than you could handle...

The available energy may be infinite. The energy you're harvesting is not. The amount of water in a tank is completely irrelevant to how much throughput a tap will achieve (other than putting an upper limit on the time it can be sustained, and since we're talking about an infinite supply...). And as per the very existance of Gridfire it is NOT more than the Culture can handle.

[SirNitram]

I'll concede that it's actually quite a simple thing to manage, since I hadn't been thinking of it the right way. But I don't think that it's going to be a smaller hole being left open over a longer period of time... it's still going to be infinite energy and more than you could handle...

Wow. You're a complete and utter moron, aren't you?

Take a faucet. Are you receiving the full amount of the water it's connected to when you turn it on?

If anything, it needs to be the smaller hole being opened for a small period of time. Harvest that energy. Then rinse and repeat throughout the day at regular intervals... and thus you have developed an everlasting source of power and resources. Of course the latter is only managable if the Culture has indeed mastered the art of 'energy-to-matter conversion', as is indicated by the Sleeper Service building a whole starfleet of about 90,000 ships in secret without stocking up on resources (nobody was suspicious that it was building anything).

.....Wow. How stupid are you? It converted the gas giant material it had collected, among other things.

Thank you, Narsil, for proving you don't even read the material you try to debate in, nor think critically. I especially like the 'It's infinite energy coming through!' nonsense, when we see Gridfire used as a weapon and this 'infinite energy' coming across does not annihilate all matter in the universe.