Current Project: RPG Toolkit, codename "M3"

[Ra]

That's an awesome plot idea. It sounds like it'd be a blast to play, once it's done. So, for the quests, are they going to be distinctly hard sci-fi, or will a few crazy things appear, like mutants or genetic experiements gone horribly wrong?

[Destructionator XV]

Ammo slots are doable, I'll just add another field to weapons / items.

I was also playing Chrono Trigger and saw something I need: random talking during battles. Like how Sir Krawlie said " I'll shread ya"

[Mayabird]

That's an awesome plot idea. It sounds like it'd be a blast to play, once it's done. So, for the quests, are they going to be distinctly hard sci-fi, or will a few crazy things appear, like mutants or genetic experiements gone horribly wrong?

I'm torn between two possibilities. One is a hard sci-fi, more adventure gaming feel. The other is a more classic fantasy RPG feel, with a few psychics in place of your typical mages and some mutant monsters, maybe even some aliens. The second would be easier since I could just rip off various ideas that have come before, but I think the first would be more rewarding if I could actually pull it off.

Regardless of which way it goes, it will have a number of Fallout references.

I was also playing Chrono Trigger and saw something I need: random talking during battles. Like how Sir Krawlie said " I'll shread ya"

I hadn't even thought of that, but yes! Maybe also some non-random talking, like someone saying, "Ow, that hurts!" when someone uses a physical attack, or "Hehehe, that tickles!" for a magic/psychic/whatever attack. Or sequential plot-related text, like Gilgamesh's lines in the battles with him in FFV.

[frigidmagi]

You could have some characters trying to talk you out of fighting and others just trash talking, random insults could get some players riled up.

[Ra]

Alrighty, I've gotten a few sample sprites done; a blacksmith, and two commoners. They're made to fit the 64 x 32 sprite size.

[Destructionator XV]

Well, in between my bitching about and doing school stuff, I have been refactoring some of the character code. What I had going was a complete mess, so I scrapped that section and redesigned it.

What does this mean to you? Nothing much. To me though, prettier design = better code, and better code means easier development.

The vehicles, characters and monsters all share the same base code, which is built on top of the same code NPCs use to move around. Internally, I treat them all exactly the same.

In the editors, they will be mostly the same. You give them stats and pictures, and can script them for story events or battles.

It should be moving along. I know I am lazy and keep pushing back the release date, but November (yes, three months behind my first time given) should have something for you all to play with, unless stupid class burns more time than I think it will (that English one is the only one that worries me because I hate it).

[Mayabird]

Don't worry, Adam. You can take your time. I can't speak for the others, but I've been really busy with schoolwork and don't have much time to work on this.

[Ra]

A slight update on the sprite department, I've tried my hand at drawing a 128 x 128 giantess, and it's worked out pretty well sofar. In addition, I have a preliminary front and back view done for player character.

[Mayabird]

This is kinda random, but I'm putting it here so I won't forget. My game will have a "catacomb" area in the burned out ruins of an old city, except it'll be the ruins of parking garages still standing, connected by bits of sewer or subway or whatever.

[Destructionator XV]

All right, tile editor design is about done. Here is how it works.

First, you have the 'tileset' window, which shows all tiles in your current set (I will provide a built in set, or you can make one from scratch.). A tileset is saved as a single file, and contains up to 255 tiles in my present design (I might bump that up; it depends on the map file format which hasn't been finalized yet) and the tile's relationships.

In the tileset window, you can create a new tile, which gives you a dialog box (more on this in a bit), delete tiles, copy and edit tiles. Most importantly though, you will be able to set up relationships.

I haven't finalized quite how this will work yet, but what the idea is is to allow auto-complete in the map editor. If you have ever used the Starcraft or even Warcraft II map editor, you know what I mean: when you put a water tile down, it automatically rounds it off so it seems to flow more naturally into the land.

You would set up what the center tile is, and then connect relationships (probably via dragging and dropping into a grid) so the program knows what the surrounding tiles should be. For a water tile, the center tile would be pure water, and the surrounding tiles would be beach on each side. I am considering having this go further so it looks even better, but I don't want to get too complex.

I am also thinking about how I might make this even more automatic: perhaps you draw one big picture with beach and water in the middle and it will automatically cut it up into individual tiles. Don't count on this though, as I am not sure how hard that will be to actually get working.

Anyhow, the dialog for new or editing a tile has a couple tabs and asks you for some facts. First is the filename for the tile's animation. You make these animations in the animation editor, and then tile edit loads it up. I might be able to add a button to launch the animation editor for you at this point.

You also set the tile's name. This is purely for you; if you name it, you can remember what it is easier, but the player never sees the name, and it is thus optional.

Also you put in the tile's step script (if you want one) and set check boxes that decide if it is a damage tile or a overlap tile (this is to make forests like how Final Fantasy 1,4,5, and 6 do it or for walls like how Phantasy Star does it where your character's legs are covered up but his head still sticks up).

On the other tab, you decide what can move or dock on the tile. There are checkboxes for walking on it, sailing on it, landing the airship, etc.

The checkboxes for this are grouped into 'vehicle classes': boat, canoe, low airship, high airship, car, and custom. You can change the names if you want; my names are only suggestions. The real reason they are in classes is I can define them ahead of time; if it was custom for each vehicle, the tile editor would have to load up the vehicle file and read all the entries, and that complicates things (since I am already behind schedule, I am going to simplify a few things to save time, and anyway, 6 types of vehicles is probably more than you would use, so I should be OK on this). And if that doesn't work out, I can always change it later, so no big deal. I just want something that works within the next month so I can start playing.

Anyhow, the side effect of grouping vehicles together is in the vehicle editor, you select what type it is from a drop down menu. Again, this should be fine, and might even be better than all of them being individual, since tiles will be more reusable between games with different vehicle sets.


But the user interface is designed, and most the tedious code will be auto-generated by the design tool, so then I code up the file format and the main window that shows the sets and it should be ready. Then I move on to the map editor, which I have already designed, and write its code to do the work, and then I'll be able to get the main engine working. Shortly after the main engine is up, I'll post an alpha release and start taking feedback on responsiveness and interface design. Shortly after that comes the monster editor and the rest of the script system, and we will be feature complete: the software will be ready for beta testing. Hopefully, after a few weeks of everyone bitching about bugs, I'll have most them fixed and we will have a 1.0 ready to be played.

The schedule on this is 4 weeks to alpha, six weeks to beta, and eight weeks to 1.0. Assuming I don't get really lazy and nothing comes up (like school or some bullshit). However, these estimates are conservative (hell, if I lock myself in my computer room until it is done, I can probably do it in one or two weeks, but realistically, my attention span isn't that good and I like to eat), so even something coming up shouldn't be too bad.

[Mayabird]

It occured to me the other day that writing generic music for nothing particular isn't really working for me. I'd have a much better time writing music if I had some concept of what I'm writing for.

[Ra]

I dunno at the moment, but on my front I'm leaning mainly toward more spooky or gothic (NO, not goth rock).

But one thing I wanted to bring up was characters. Sure we have the PC and joinable party members, but will there be an option to chose from several distinct protagonists?

I was wanting to include the knight you all know of, as well as a vampire hunter, a good witch/priest (for a more magic-heavy gaming experience), and a mercenary. Two female, two male. I personally prefer having a set number of playable characters and styles, as opposed to only one dude or completely creating them from scratch like in BG (obviously not an option here because of the near-infinite sprite combinations needed).

Creating four sets of sprites and four different versions of the dialogue and plot (possible character-specific quests) would be a lot of work for me, but I think that the final product would be something awesome, to put it very lightly.

[Destructionator XV]

Indeed, it would be a lot of work for you, an assload of work for you, but there is nothing to preclude it in my current design draft. I should be able to stick in a few things to help that along too, but more on my part might not even be needed, as in the current system, you can do it all in a switch or series of if then's for each protagonist.

Something like
if player character is dude #1
do this
else if player character is dudette #2
do something else.

But if I am interpreting what you want correctly, it should be doable pretty easily even in the current plan, and if you can think of any way that you think it might be easier from your end, I can see about incorporating it in.

[Ra]

Thanks. If I can think of anything that would help the process, I'll make mention of it.

[Destructionator XV]

The tile editor and map editors both have their general designs done, and a skeleton implemented. I have also basically decided on file formats, so I intend to have them implemented by this time next week, or at the latest, end of next week (depends on how side tracked I get).

After that, I am going to get started on the engine itself, then go back and add characters, monsters, etc.

But I am thinking about the engine a little. Aside from the script interfaces and details of how the graphics and sound work (which is going to be the hard part for me), I am also thinking about little user interface things.

Such as, what should dialog boxes look like? What about the menu? Also worth mentioning that while the editors all are mouse happy, the engine itself will have no mouse support. It is my intention to focus on keyboard and also hopefully implement a joystick interface (primarily because I like playing games with my playstation controller), but that is low priority too.

So all the input will be keyboard based. You need to use the arrows and enter or whatever to go through menus to make selections; no clicking on stuff. It is just far simpler this way, however fitting mouse support in later is not impossible, it is just not a design goal for 1.0.

Anyway, for the character dialog boxes and menus, I am thinking I will base it on Final Fantasy 7. I doubt this will be changeable by the content creator because that will be a lot of graphics work for me, and I'm not really a graphics guy. You will be able to enable and disable aspects (like swapping out party members) and change the default colors, but nothing fundamental.

For the end user, what I see is a gradient thing like FF7, but with transparancy added in (because it is cool and the transparancy code is going to be there anyway, might as well use it). The user selects the colors of the corners and probably the text and text shadow.

I did that in M2 because I liked it in FF7, and intend to do it again.

Anyway, as to what things will look like, the menu will be full screen, maybe animated (that isn't very important to me, so if it is hard to do, it can wait), and drawn on top of the map with map animation turned off. Basically, it takes a snapshot of the map, uses it as a background, and sticks the menu over it. This way, if the user selected partial transparancy, he will see it, but it won't be hard for me to code.

The layout I am really thinking of again, FF7. Character overviews and portraits on the left, global stats on the bottom (money, time, whatever), and options in the upper right. Options will be what you expect: item, magic, save, status, config, etc.

Boxes will optionally have a character portrait on the left in various emotion states (like in Lunar), character name up top, text inside that is auto paged, surrounded by a 3d box type thing (I'll probably let the user change those colors too) and the inside will be colored just like the menu. Nothing too special here, but I think it should look fine.

Decision boxes can be a grid (think Dragon Warrior menus), a list, or a table (which is a list with more information, like seen in shops). They will have the same basic appearance as the talk boxes. You use the arrow keys and enter to make a selection.

Inputting text is probably going to be done FF style again, but the keyboard will be responsive (after all, this is a PC program, not a console program).

The script APIs for these input systems will be pretty easy: something like askyesno to ask for a yes no, and it returns 1 if yes, 0 if no, etc. I haven't worked it out, but I intend to keep it pretty basic.


So basically, expect FF7 clonage.


One thing that I had in M2 also that I really do like was the changing of the text color to indicate different status, like Dragon Warrior did. In DOS, this was really easy; I used a hardware palette swap so all colors of the white index (colors in 8 bit displays are stored as indexes into a color table) would be displayed as blue if night time, green if you have a weak character, and red if you have a dead character, just like Dragon Warrior. You could also use this special color in your tiles, or just use simple white or whatever. I thought it was pretty cool, but not sure if I will do it here. It is technically harder (since I am doing 32 bit color now; there is no hardware palette to tweak like in DOS and on the NES), and color clashes with the user's custom background could be ugly.

One way around that is let the user select different font colors in the menu for each situation. I might do that.


Anyway, that is what I have in mind. Again, engine work is about a week away still if all goes well, so there is time to incorporate your comments before I start real work. If you have any suggestions, comments, or just hate it, just say so and we can work out a new design or whatever.

[Ra]

I really like the keyboard idea. It's a lot more like classic console RPG's, so it kicks ass.

On my end, I've been making a mess of an article on the ARSD Wiki jotting down ideas for my storyline idea, here. There are probably still significant plot holes, but it's evolving nicely.

[Mayabird]

I finally got to reading your storyline idea, Ra, and damn, that's structured like crazy and organized and everything. Mine is going to be much looser, with just the thinnest absolute quest requirements (Intro "familiarization" quest, find your crashed shipmates, get back home) and not excessively much on the side in order to achieve those goals. Of course, one could play that straightforward super-fast game, but it wouldn't be that much fun. The fun would be in wandering around, doing the random side-quests, going to wacky places and seeing the sights. I want mini-games, but not to be able to get some essential component that you need to build the engine for the ship to get back into space, requiring you to spent twenty hours playing the stupid mini-game to get the damn part. But if you so desire to play the stupid mini-game for twenty hours, that's your own problem .

For instance, I had one idea for a mini-game set in an old dump. There's a mining town there that basically mines the dump for stuff they can sell or trade, and there's one area where you can pay some crazy old man to go digging on his property. You won't find essential stuff, but you might find bits of plastic that you can sell or maybe even a figurine that some rich trader would pay out the nose for to buy.

In fact, I should start typing out all this stuff I have scribbled on the margins of my notes and scraps of paper. I'll do that tonight, after band practice.


Adam, would it be possible to have multiple currencies in the game?

[Destructionator XV]

Adam, would it be possible to have multiple currencies in the game?

I haven't really thought about that yet; so far I have been assuming the bog-standard gold or whatever.

What exactly do you mean by it? Something like US dollars to Canadian dollars, which can be exchanged for each other? Something like feather, fang, horn, and whatever like Chrono Trigger did in prehistoric to trade for goods? Or something like two separate, but incompatible currencies; they are both like the generic gold, but cannot be exchanged and some stores take only one or the other?

All of those should be pretty possible, maybe even all of them. Money is just a big variable in the party's data, so adding more would be a pretty simple thing to do; I would just need to add the proper user interface components (display how much the player has, allow the game editor to change their names and usage, etc), and the support for the math of conversions if that is what you have in mind.



Also on the mini-games, that is something I want to do in more power. If you want something like how FF7 did its minigames (something I think would be pretty cool), we are going to be in for some work. Doing something like that with the scripting interface as I see it now is going to be hard, but if I add a generic graphics and sound interface to it (similar to animations like I have them now; you can move sprites and make them disappear), you would be able to do alot more, if you put in the time and the game is simple enough (scripts don't run very fast. They are good enough for little basic tasks, but the slowness would be seen if you try to implement a real-time game with them).

Also I might be able to design a plug-in system, so you can write game extensions in C or C++. And by 'you' I probably mean you design it, and I'll write it, since I don't think any of you guys know C/C++. That would be basically letting you do whatever you want at full speed, and has some disadvantages. Obviously writing C is not as easy as little scripts (and fear not, I will teach all you how to work my script system soon enough; it isn't too bad), and could lead to instability, so I don't know if I will actually do that.



Anyway, your minigame seems to be something more like the Chocobo hot and cold game from FF9 or the thing you do to get the key to sector 7 in FF7, that needs nothing special, as it is basically hidden treasure boxes and talking to dudes, so that should be possible no matter what. Also games like FF9's jump roping or Chrono Trigger's soda guzzling are pretty easy; it is just a timer and button reading, both doable with normal RPG engine components.


But if you do think up ideas for little games like FF7 did or if you want something like FF8's Triple Triad (a game I really liked.... and not to hard to make, hmmm), don't discount them without posting the ideas here first. It might be possible, and if it is not right now, I might be able to make it possible.

And now since I am thinking of Triple Triad, I think I do want a CCG built in. What do you guys think about that? Have ideas for rules or should I make them scriptable or just steal from FF8? Note that this won't be done for a bit; I fully intend to have the core (tiles, characters, maps, battles, menus, basic interfaces and some of the advanced things (fancy graphics and sound engine should also be ready)) ready within the next two weeks, and I seem to be on schedule to make that happen. (I'm pretty excited) Implementing these complex mini games most likely will come in the following month or so.

[Mayabird]

Adam, would it be possible to have multiple currencies in the game?

I haven't really thought about that yet; so far I have been assuming the bog-standard gold or whatever.

What exactly do you mean by it? Something like US dollars to Canadian dollars, which can be exchanged for each other? Something like feather, fang, horn, and whatever like Chrono Trigger did in prehistoric to trade for goods? Or something like two separate, but incompatible currencies; they are both like the generic gold, but cannot be exchanged and some stores take only one or the other?

Well, my game was going to be world (and possibly solar system) spanning, and since the societies have been cut off from each other for a while, I doubted that the accepted currency in one place would be accepted in another. The spacers might have some sort of credits or other sci-fi sounding currency, while the throwback kingdoms have gold and silver coinage, while Fallout-parody catacomb city would use bottlecaps. Depending on what other societies I end up making there might be a couple more. I imagine that all but the spacer credits would be exchangable in major trade cities. Go to the exchange and switch your eagleheads for bottlecaps or whatever. It's kinda like the world situation now, but it can be changed as needed.

Anyway, your minigame seems to be something more like the Chocobo hot and cold game from FF9 or the thing you do to get the key to sector 7 in FF7, that needs nothing special, as it is basically hidden treasure boxes and talking to dudes, so that should be possible no matter what. Also games like FF9's jump roping or Chrono Trigger's soda guzzling are pretty easy; it is just a timer and button reading, both doable with normal RPG engine components.

Yeah, it's basically just Chocobo Hot and Cold (I loved that game) but a bit simpler. Instead of a timer I was thinking that Crazy Leroy lets you dig ten holes in his yard. Whichever is easier.

I was never much into those card games, so I wasn't planning on having them. I want to avoid tasks that involve "collect 'em all" kinds of things, where you just get stuff to show how completionist you are. I suppose it's easier to code "Get 99 of X to get Super Y" than to think of much more stuff to do.

Anyway, I'm going to try to assemble some of the notes I have so far and copy them here tonight.

EDIT: I have six pages of stuff so far, and I haven't even started on my official drawings of the maps. I can put this stuff on my GT webpage, or would it be better for me to steal some wiki bandwidth with this stuff instead?

[Ra]

Since the ARSD wiki is basically open to all of us, I think Adam would have no problem with you starting a new page and posting your ideas (heh, it's what I did).

EDIT: I need to work on a preliminary world map of my own. I was planning on modifying an area of the real world, like maybe part of the Caucasus, and using that because of the large amount of eurasian influences in the game.

[Destructionator XV]

Yeah, feel free to go nuts with anything on my server that is up. I just have to ask you don't edit my pages I made (though if you did, no big deal, I can always just revert or restore from backups); I use the wiki as a scratch pad for my original sci fi universe ideas and work, too.

Remember though uptime is not 100%; it is my home computer and sometimes I turn it off or my Internet goes out, etc. Also it is sometimes slow if I am doing something else, but be patient with it and you should have no problem.

If you need any other web services feel free to ask, too, by the way. Again, I am not terribly reliable but I do have a few cool things (and can get most anything I don't have, the beauty of Free Software) here and am willing to share if you need something.

edit: I also have a pretty big amount of freedom with the LibArc server, and the guys said I can use it for stuff relating to this project, so if you need / want anything from here, like upload space for something big or whatever, I can probably set that up too.

[Destructionator XV]

And we have a functioning sound engine!

It needs you to install the SDL library files though, another dependancy. It can also play MIDIs, which is awesome, but it requires another large download to be installed too (sound samples). It doesn't sound amazing either, but it certainly isn't bad, and once the big download is installed, you need not download it again. Has a few advantages especially in file size after the fact (midis are 20k rather than 3 megs) and you can ship your own midi files you created, without needing my to go through and convert them to something else. Disadvantages are: 1) big initial download 2) lower quality 3) eats more CPU on some machines.

But I finally have a functioning sound engine!

[Destructionator XV]

And the joystick engine is coming, very close to done now, so I want to take a moment to explain what I mean by joystick.

What I have plugged into my computer is a Playstation 1 dual shock controller, and that is what I use for most my RPG-ing. It is great because it works naturally for NES, SNES, and PSX; they are obvious evolutions right down the path.

I probably will have analog support like how FF8 and FF9 does it. The dpad does the same thing as the arrow keys on the keyboard.

While any joystick out there should work the same way, I am writing it with the playstation controller in mind. The dpad and analog I mentioned above, and all in game controls are defined in terms of the 10 buttons on the PS controller (4 shoulder, 4 shapes, start and select). The keyboard controls are mapped to them. Exception is when you are entering text; then the keyboard works as you expect.

Also note the joystick is for in game only; when using the editors, you keyboard and mouse it like you do for any normal program, since they are just normal programs.

So yeah, summary is playstation controller is what I am designing for, and it should be good.

[Ace Pace]

Does this mean when mapping buttons you expect us to map buttons to the PS only or can I actully define straight keyboard?

I.E can I just straight define WASD?

[Destructionator XV]

Yeah, you can. It is kinda indirect though. I call the buttons dpad-left, dpad-right, etc, and you can set any key on the keyboard to mean the same thing.

If you want wasd or hjkl or even both ( you can press w or j or up arrow all to move up) to be used in addition to the dpad, you simply tell it that. I haven't done the user interface for mapping, but I will probably be something like

Press the button for up: (you press whatever button you want)
Press the button for down... etc etc

But there will be no more control options than buttons on the PSX controller, which is plenty for an RPG. This would be a limitation for a RTS, for example, since you could only define 10 hotkeys instead of the 26 or more on your keyboard, but again, this is a console style RPG and they don't often use more than a few buttons anyway.