nBSG, Did the President make the right choice?

[frigidmagi]

I've been thinking about this for a while and I'd have to say back in season 1 where President Roslan made a choice to attempt to keep a democratic government and permissive society going, she fucked up and fucked up big.

Roughly 50,000 people in a collection of ships of varying size, shape and ability fleeing from a genocidcal enemy that is well estblished in it's abilities to commit crimes again man and nature is not the time for a democratic experiment. To be blunt the need to ensure the survivial of the specis in this case overrides the need to maintain individual liberities and rights to free speech, assemby and even that of religion. The fleet should have been under martial law from day one and Roslan's responbility was to estblish a military government that could function in regards to defense, law enforcement, the uptaining and distrubution of resources, health care, etc.

That luxury linears parks and resort hotel should have been converted to farms and childcare not a relaxing site for politicos. Martial Law should have been declared. While they did protest and riot when Tigh did it let's be honest here, on day 1, they would have accepted anything. The reason they protested against Tigh was because he was doing a rapid change on them when they had just gotten used to the way things were. By trying to keep the old society I charge the president with exposing the last remains of humanity to greater danger and risking the very survival of the specis just so she can feel better about herself when she goes to bed.

The events of Battle Star Galatica are the among most extreme condaintions you can put a population into and in extreme condaintions you must resort to extremes to preverse life and the continuation of the specis, which is now the authorities overriding duty, not to preserve individual liberty. A draft should have been employed. Rationing and the seizing of personal property conductive to the survival of the whole should have been done, as far as I could see none of this was done. Therefore I must submit that the President failed in her duties and made the wrong choice.

[LadyTevar]

I disagree. In "Pegasus" we see that Commander Caine did exactly what you suggest the President do, but go even further. Caine, when she found other refugee ships, raided them for food, supplies, FTL fuel, and civilians with useful skills. These civilians were torn from their families, kidnapped by Caine's order, and then the ships raided were Left Behind.

[frigidmagi]

Caine was engaged in piratcy not in a military government meant to ensure the survival of the fleet and all known human surviviors at the time. I'm going to have to say I don't see the example as workable. A military government estblished for the guidelines I provided above would be as different from Caine's operations as a displinced military unit is from a bunch of rioters.

I should also note my belief that Caine was unstable and frankly immoral. Any military commander who allows the gang rape of any prisoner no matter what it's orgin has lost any right or ability to command for the common good.

[Stofsk]

I see what you're arguing, and partially agree with it.

I think Tom Zareck made the right observation in the first season. "We aren't people, we're your slaves. Do with us what you wish." He said something like that to Apollo after Apollo makes his limp-wristed offer to the convicts. Zareck wanted Apollo to acknowledge the stone-cold fact: that they could simply order the convicts to do slave work but they had to admit what it was they were doing. On "Colony Day" or whatever it was called, later in that season, he makes the other point about the gardener - "Why is this man still working? Why does he come in every day and do the same thing over and over?"

Zareck was obviously portrayed as a collectivist, dare i say it, a pinko. But is this so wrong? (Don't nuke me yet, Frigid) Cloud 9 was the kind of thing that could have easily been used, if not for farming, then at the very least what Frigid describes: a children's creche. That would be an easy way to make Boxey a character btw, I wonder why Moore didn't think about it. I guess because he's an idiot, because instead we see children locked up in cells according to "Black Market". Suddenly, I want the Cylons to find the fleet and wipe them out.

(Don't get me started on the absurdity of Baltar smuggling a nuke to Gina without anybody knowing about it. We're talking about how 'radiological alarms' go off whenever a nuke is detected. So there is frankly no excuse for that to happen and it is one of the things that has pushed me towards the "Drop nBSG like a hot potato" edge)

In fact, it makes me wonder how they do things in the fleet anyway. The episodes have concentrated on bullshit soap opera stuff when they could give us a look at ships on the fleet. What life is like aboard them.

[frigidmagi]

You know, it near kills me to admit it but the military government I'm calling for would be very... Socalist if not outright communist in nature. Communism doesn't work in alot of cases but in this case it might be necessary for a short time peroid. At least until they can grab a stable, defensiable resource base.

[Stofsk]

I disagree. In "Pegasus" we see that Commander Caine did exactly what you suggest the President do, but go even further. Caine, when she found other refugee ships, raided them for food, supplies, FTL fuel, and civilians with useful skills. These civilians were torn from their families, kidnapped by Caine's order, and then the ships raided were Left Behind.

This isn't really what Frigid is describing. And besides, how fucking different are Roslin and Cain anyway?

Roslin blew Leobin out an airlock after he had been tortured for however long he had been tortured for. She then, like an idiot, believed his cock and bull story about how Adama was a Cylon.

Cain had Gina (the Six model) raped.

Not to get into another flamefest over the matter, but for fuck's sake how does President Airlock get a free ride while Cain RIGHTLY gets smeared with the "Bitch Cunt" brush?

(and I said RIGHTLY - so nobody is invited to get all indignant over what I'm NOT saying)

Hell, Cally shot Boomer and gets 30 days in the brig...

[fgalkin]

The matter is a complicated one. On one hand, an authoritarian government is inherently more suitable for dealing with the situation. On the other hand, their Articles of Colonization explicitly state that their government is a democratic one. To claim any legitimacy as President, she had to follow the chain of succession as defined in those Articles, which, in turn, meant being bound to a democratic system, whether she wanted to or not. If she did not do so, she would have had no claim to the Presidency, and Adama would have become the military governor of the fleet, since at that point he was the one with power.

Also, without a democratic system in place, Zarek would still have made a move, but that move would have been a violent revolution, in which case, Roslyn would have probably lost her life.

It wasn't a matter of right or wrong choice, she had no choice at all.

Have a very nice day.
-fgalkin

[frigidmagi]

Cally shot Boomer and gets 30 days in the brig...

I honestly beleive she got the light sentence due to being well...vitally needed. The vipers are the most importent resource that they have. This makes viper pilots and viper mechanics more importent then anyone else, including civilian government personale. However Cally needed to be punished so 30 days.

Factor in the following, Boomer was known to be a Cyclon. Everyone and their mother hates Cyclons at that moment on that boat. How much support do you think there is for say shoving cute little Cally out an airlock? Part of what they teach officer's is never give an order you know won't be followed or will incite mutiny.

[LadyTevar]

I compare Caine's actions to the Nuclear Subs of the ColdWar: submerge, survive, and then strike back with excessive force. Adama was also going to follow that until Roslyn talked him out of it.

Yes, Caine was insane. Yes, she was committing piracy, both on the refugees and upon the Cylon Supply lines. She acted as a Military Dictator, brutal and mostly effective.

[frigidmagi]

I would have to disagree. She acted as a Pirate Captain. Last I checked Pirate Captains are not considered military dictatiors. She was not a head of state or of a population. She was the leader of a rouge unit. She cannot qualify for the status of a head of government.

[Stofsk]

I think fgalkin's got a point. Democracy is one of those things that is worth having and is also easy to lose. Once you lose it, there's no guarantee you'll be able to get it back easily, if at all, in your lifetime.

On the other hand, Frigid's also got a point: they should be making babies, setting up creches, and the second the fleet had calmed down after 33, Adama should have had a long talk with Roslin about setting up a secret service to both protect the President and also investigate fleet sabotage.

I don't think the extreme measures taken for survival's sake are irreconcilable with Democracy. A temporary suspension of certain rights - so long as it is temporary - seems to be the best of both worlds.

EDIT:

Cally shot Boomer and gets 30 days in the brig...

I honestly beleive she got the light sentence due to being well...vitally needed. The vipers are the most importent resource that they have. This makes viper pilots and viper mechanics more importent then anyone else, including civilian government personale. However Cally needed to be punished so 30 days.

Factor in the following, Boomer was known to be a Cyclon. Everyone and their mother hates Cyclons at that moment on that boat. How much support do you think there is for say shoving cute little Cally out an airlock? Part of what they teach officer's is never give an order you know won't be followed or will incite mutiny.

Actually, I agree. Cally did what she did, it was a crime, deserves more than the slap of the wrist she got, but at the end of the day she's vitally needed repairing Vipers.

However, there's no reason why she shouldn't still be punished for what she did in other ways. Works while on-duty, confined to the brig when off-duty. If she doesn't like it, tough, maybe next time she won't steal a gun and shoot it into a crowd, killing a POW and endangering others. If she behaves, we may upgrade that to confined to quarters.

[frigidmagi]

It wasn't a matter of right or wrong choice, she had no choice at all.

Are we given to understand that the Articles have no emerengy clause? There is the Dictatior clause in the US Constitution for example. As well as other type causes for extreme circumstances in other governments I am aware of.

[LadyTevar]

I would have to disagree. She acted as a Pirate Captain. Last I checked Pirate Captains are not considered military dictatiors. She was not a head of state or of a population. She was the leader of a rouge unit. She cannot qualify for the status of a head of government.

She saw herself as the highest-ranked military officer in the Colonial Fleet, commanding the last BattleStar of said fleet, and justified her actions as military necessity for the survival of her command.

Her actions will go down in the new Colonial histories as that of an insane commander whose actions were mere piracy. It was not how she viewed herself, nor how several under her command saw her.

[frigidmagi]

She saw herself as the highest-ranked military officer in the Colonial Fleet, commanding the last BattleStar of said fleet, and justified her actions as military necessity for the survival of her command.

Her command. Those are the key words here. A military government is made up of more then just a single unit or command. It also includes the civilians living under that commands protection.

To be honest I think the problem here is we have a different view of what can be said to constitue a military government, from what I can tell you seem to believe that a single unit can be said to be one?

I do not. A military unit is not a government and the command of one is not a sufficent claim to government status no matter what the belief of the crewmembers and officer of command. To be blunt, their belief simply doesn't matter in the defination. Otherwise we would also have to consider Jack Sparrow a head of state which is frankly ridiculious no matter how cool that would make UN meetings.

[fgalkin]

It wasn't a matter of right or wrong choice, she had no choice at all.

Are we given to understand that the Articles have no emerengy clause? There is the Dictatior clause in the US Constitution for example. As well as other type causes for extreme circumstances in other governments I am aware of.

We don't know the exact text of the Articles, so we can't say if they have it or not. But if it did exist, I'd think it would be mentioned in the show. It was not, to my knowledge.

Have a very nice day.
-fgalkin

[frigidmagi]

That honestly makes me wonder how they ever won the first Cyclon war.

[fgalkin]

Seeing how the designs of their warships are still far superior to those of the Cylons, despite the fact that their overall technology is behind, it's probably better military sense. I mean, humans are quite adept at warfare, yet for all we know, the Cylons were never programmed for it, so they had to pick stuff up along the way.

Have a very nice day.
-fgalkin

[Mayabird]

They already don't have any economy to speak of. Everyone's surviving off Galactica's water tanks and algae processing food thingies. They're low on medicine and no new supplies are coming in. A lot of the resources they did have before were left on New Caprica. The civilians are all walking around in raggedy clothes and it looks like the only things available for trade are booze and sex (where the hell is all this booze coming from, anyway?).

I could kinda see how pre-New Caprica they couldn't set up a military dictatorship/communist type rule. It was one crisis after another among a bunch of people who got thrown together with whatever they had just trying to not get killed from day to day. People got set in their ways. Not to mention the president being whacked out on kamala. Why they don't do it now that people are grateful just to be alive and way from the Cylons (while at the same time in even more desperate straits) I have no idea.

[Stofsk]

New Caprica really pisses me off. It felt like a giant reset button being pushed.

[The Duchess of Zeon]

I've been thinking about this for a while and I'd have to say back in season 1 where President Roslan made a choice to attempt to keep a democratic government and permissive society going, she fucked up and fucked up big.

Roughly 50,000 people in a collection of ships of varying size, shape and ability fleeing from a genocidcal enemy that is well estblished in it's abilities to commit crimes again man and nature is not the time for a democratic experiment. To be blunt the need to ensure the survivial of the specis in this case overrides the need to maintain individual liberities and rights to free speech, assemby and even that of religion. The fleet should have been under martial law from day one and Roslan's responbility was to estblish a military government that could function in regards to defense, law enforcement, the uptaining and distrubution of resources, health care, etc.

That luxury linears parks and resort hotel should have been converted to farms and childcare not a relaxing site for politicos. Martial Law should have been declared. While they did protest and riot when Tigh did it let's be honest here, on day 1, they would have accepted anything. The reason they protested against Tigh was because he was doing a rapid change on them when they had just gotten used to the way things were. By trying to keep the old society I charge the president with exposing the last remains of humanity to greater danger and risking the very survival of the specis just so she can feel better about herself when she goes to bed.

The events of Battle Star Galatica are the among most extreme condaintions you can put a population into and in extreme condaintions you must resort to extremes to preverse life and the continuation of the specis, which is now the authorities overriding duty, not to preserve individual liberty. A draft should have been employed. Rationing and the seizing of personal property conductive to the survival of the whole should have been done, as far as I could see none of this was done. Therefore I must submit that the President failed in her duties and made the wrong choice.

I was having a conversation on this very subject tonight. Looking at it from the perspective of if I woke up as Cain tomorrow with the supralight Colonial ships waiting there, and my choice about what to do with them needed right now, I would have done something very different--but not terribly different.

A minimum fleet speed would have been established as necessary to allow for hit-and-run operations safely. Military personnel would have been sent to all of the ships to investigate them and determine which ones could maintain fleet speed, with some latitude in that speed to maintain enough of the ships. The criteria would also be adjusted for the material condition of the vessels. In the end, probably a good two-thirds of them would have been abandoned, completely stripped of any possible useful spare parts.

None of the crews would have been abandoned, however--and this is the difference between a military dictator and a pirate--but instead they and the refugees they had aboard would be transferred to the intact ships, and to the Pegasus herself. Excess members of their crews with useful skills would have been sent to the Pegasus to work as conscripts, and if they refused to go they'd simply be punished under the Colonial equivalent of the UCMJ for insubordination and tossed in the brig. If this overloaded the Pegasus, so be it. Hammocks could be strung over cargo pallets and hot-bunking utilized to create enough space. Extremely strict rationing would be instituted.

Military personnel would be placed aboard all the remaining civilian ships (again, if over-capacity, more civilians would have been sent to live aboard the Pegasus), which would be provided with a defensive armament (if they can manufacture new Vipers in the Pegasus then they can definitely put a bunch of Viper-scale guns on some large civvie ships for point-defence). The military elements of their new crews would have direct command. Everyone in this Second Fleet would be under direct military control by myself, and military discipline would be applied to everyone except the very young, who would of course be cared for by those under military discipline. Having children would be encouraged, even among the military personnel, indeed, especially, since the civilians with no other useful skills could be assigned to care for them.

The goal of the following operations would be to preserve life at all cost while obtaining whatever resources are possible, and for the least cost, doing the most damage to the Cylon supply infrastructure. Attacks would be made only after considerable reconaissance and with immense caution. Overall, the strategic goal would be to determine the size of the surviving population in the colonies. If the surviving population were large, then guerrilla war should be waged against the Cylons to provide them some sort of hope for carrying through to a future victory through a general resistance.

If the surviving population appears nonexistant or under total Cylon control in very small numbers, then operations would change to simply build up as much in the way of supplies as would be possible. Then we'd jump, and keep jumping, going coreward the whole while to the limit of the fleet, searching for a habitable planet, any habitable planet, and then, after one has been found, going further, and searching for another... Until all the ships are on the verge of mechanical failure, at the utmost distance possible from the Cylons. They would then be grounded on the furthest habitable planet charted, with the Vipers and Raptors reserved for defensive purposes from the ground, and there a new human population would be established.

[Lord Iames Osari]

There is the Dictatior clause in the US Constitution for example.

Wait, what? I've read the Constitution, and I don't remember anything like that in there.

[frigidmagi]

It allows the President in events of natural emerency such as widespread insurrection to temporary suspend such rights as Habeas Courpus. Lincoln put it to wide use in the civil war, however it did and does not give the right to suspend or delay elections.

[The Duchess of Zeon]

The Supreme Court's specific ruling--which finally came after the war--was that it was only applicable in zones where the government could no long function, that is, only in the states actually in insurrection or in border states where the infrastructure was destroyed by the fighting. In those cases, Habeas Corpus can be suspended. Otherwise it must be maintained in the areas where government still provides basic order.

In the case of the Colonies, one should find it obvious that there is no basic order anywhere, and the suspension of Habeas Corpus for the survivors is essentially legal.

[Stofsk]

The infrastructure is provided by Galactica and Colonial One, for military protection and political leadership, but also for other survival concerns, like water and food and spare parts from Galactica's machine shops (with a nice healthy injection by Pegasus when she showed up). Both of these ships are government property, so unless I've misunderstood what you've written - which I acknowledge is a possibility, considering how tired I am - I think it's safe to say all that is needed for Colonial Society to continue is provided for.