Developments in the Honorverse

[Lord Iames Osari]

White Haven was Honor's mentor and patron in the Manticoran Navy. You don't have to read very far into the series to get that. Marrying your protege whose career you've supported and boosted smells like dead fish.

Again, I don't see the "mentor" relationship; patron, yes, but you have to remember that years of in-universe time can and have passed between books, and people can and do change how they perceive other people with the passage of time. Besides, by the time of the marriage, I would consider even the patron-protege relationship to have been over for years.

And Honor Harrington in a group marriage? Please, that sounds like bad fan fiction.

When you put it like that, yes. But you have to remember one of the consistent threads through the novels, that Honor "is as much from Grayson as from Manticore". Hell, White Haven himself spent enough time on Grayson to be "infected" by their attitudes.

And you know what else sounds like bad fanfiction? Having a character in Middle Earth who is completely untempted by the One Ring. A mortal character, no less. You know who I'm talking about. His name begins with "F" and ends with "aramir". But it wouldn't suprise me at all to learn that you're one of those people who screamed bloody murder when Pete Jackson et al. changed that for the movies.

So tell me, what is it that makes the first one "bad fanfiction", but the other an inviolable part of a classic piece of modern literature?

And the tree cats are practically treated as avatars of Shiva at the beginning of the series. They have every incentive to communicate effectively with humans because they are pandered to in the way house cats can only dream of. What is "send food back and have them prepare the exact same course, but delivered three degree Celsius hotter bitch" in tree cat hand sign, because that's what they get away with.

It's becoming clear that you haven't read, or at least, do not give much credence to, the material contained in the Honorverse anthologies. I will say that the treecat policy of concealing their true intelligence from humans goes back to the days of first contact, and that because of certain features of their society, has continued up until the events of Ashes of Victory.

But of course, only Honor is capable of making this crucial breakthrough, not one of the other tree cat owners, which includes the Manticoran royalty and the pedestals they are placed on.

In fairness to those other treecat owners, Honor's link gave her an advantage there. I will concede that the existence of that link is in and of itself somewhat unreasonable and a flaw in the writing, but if you read or remember the short story "The Stray," you will know that such a link is not unprecedented in the Honorverse.

The tree cat wanking was a little much. Even for me. In the early books. That should tell you something.

Actually, since I only just joined these forums, it tells me nothing except that some elements of the Honor Harrington series are not to your taste.

[fgalkin]

White Haven was Honor's mentor and patron in the Manticoran Navy. You don't have to read very far into the series to get that. Marrying your protege whose career you've supported and boosted smells like dead fish.

Again, I don't see the "mentor" relationship; patron, yes, but you have to remember that years of in-universe time can and have passed between books, and people can and do change how they perceive other people with the passage of time. Besides, by the time of the marriage, I would consider even the patron-protege relationship to have been over for years.

Patron is bad enough, but it is clear that after Courvosier's death, White Haven not only advanced her career, but also provided her with advice.

And Honor Harrington in a group marriage? Please, that sounds like bad fan fiction.

When you put it like that, yes. But you have to remember one of the consistent threads through the novels, that Honor "is as much from Grayson as from Manticore". Hell, White Haven himself spent enough time on Grayson to be "infected" by their attitudes.

I must admit that I found At All Costs so abominable, I skipped pretty much everything but the politics and the battle scenes, but the reaction in Manticore should have been more severe. In Nelson's England, on which the Honorverse is based, anyone who did this would be ceratain to lose one's commission, at the least. Manticore is not polygamous, after all.

And you know what else sounds like bad fanfiction? Having a character in Middle Earth who is completely untempted by the One Ring. A mortal character, no less. You know who I'm talking about. His name begins with "F" and ends with "aramir". But it wouldn't suprise me at all to learn that you're one of those people who screamed bloody murder when Pete Jackson et al. changed that for the movies.

So tell me, what is it that makes the first one "bad fanfiction", but the other an inviolable part of a classic piece of modern literature?

Now you're just angry because we criticized a book you liked, and you're lashing out at something others like, saying "see, your favorite book has that, too!" Which, by the way, is wrong. Faramir was tempted by the Ring, but realized that to use it would spell doom for Gondor, so he did not take it. He's not somehow magically immune to it

And the tree cats are practically treated as avatars of Shiva at the beginning of the series. They have every incentive to communicate effectively with humans because they are pandered to in the way house cats can only dream of. What is "send food back and have them prepare the exact same course, but delivered three degree Celsius hotter bitch" in tree cat hand sign, because that's what they get away with.

It's becoming clear that you haven't read, or at least, do not give much credence to, the material contained in the Honorverse anthologies. I will say that the treecat policy of concealing their true intelligence from humans goes back to the days of first contact, and that because of certain features of their society, has continued up until the events of Ashes of Victory.

Like I said, "just because" veiled in "it's not a bug, it's a feature" to fool gullible readers.

But of course, only Honor is capable of making this crucial breakthrough, not one of the other tree cat owners, which includes the Manticoran royalty and the pedestals they are placed on.

In fairness to those other treecat owners, Honor's link gave her an advantage there. I will concede that the existence of that link is in and of itself somewhat unreasonable and a flaw in the writing, but if you read or remember the short story "The Stray," you will know that such a link is not unprecedented in the Honorverse.

The link itself is not that bad, it's the fact that in addition to that, she does all the other stuff that makes her a Mary-Sue.

Have a very nice day.
-fgalkin

[Lord Iames Osari]

Again, I don't see the "mentor" relationship; patron, yes, but you have to remember that years of in-universe time can and have passed between books, and people can and do change how they perceive other people with the passage of time. Besides, by the time of the marriage, I would consider even the patron-protege relationship to have been over for years.

Patron is bad enough, but it is clear that after Courvosier's death, White Haven not only advanced her career, but also provided her with advice.

Does offering advice automatically move one into the category of "mentor"?

I must admit that I found At All Costs so abominable, I skipped pretty much everything but the politics and the battle scenes, but the reaction in Manticore should have been more severe. In Nelson's England, on which the Honorverse is based, anyone who did this would be ceratain to lose one's commission, at the least. Manticore is not polygamous, after all.

I see. And were prostitutes legal in Nelson's England? It's mentioned at least once in the earlier novels that White Haven has employed the services of "registered courtesans" *wink wink nudge nudge* to see to his physical needs, since Emily was a cripple. While I will not dispute that Nelsonian England is a not insignificant influence on the flavor of Manticoran society, I think that it is also a good deal more cosmopolitan than you give it credit for. While I doubt that polygamous marriages are common in Manticoran society, I equally doubt that they are unheard of to the point of taboo.

Now you're just angry because we criticized a book you liked, and you're lashing out at something others like, saying "see, your favorite book has that, too!" Which, by the way, is wrong. Faramir was tempted by the Ring, but realized that to use it would spell doom for Gondor, so he did not take it. He's not somehow magically immune to it

"I would not take this thing if it lay by the side of the high way." In a single sentence, Faramir dismisses all possibility of taking it and is never troubled by it again.

It's becoming clear that you haven't read, or at least, do not give much credence to, the material contained in the Honorverse anthologies. I will say that the treecat policy of concealing their true intelligence from humans goes back to the days of first contact, and that because of certain features of their society, has continued up until the events of Ashes of Victory.

Like I said, "just because" veiled in "it's not a bug, it's a feature" to fool gullible readers.

Well, I wasn't going to bring it up, but since you did, what is there about any fictional world that isn't there by author fiat? In Honorverse, I can count these things:

1) Homo sapiens exist.
2) Homo sapiens use tools of varying technological complexity.
3) Groups of Homo sapiens form organized, hierarchical societies
4) These societies periodically engage in warfare.
5) Stars exist and are separated by vast distances.
6) Stars are organized into galaxies.
6) Planets orbit some of those stars.
7) Among these stars there is one which we call the Sun.
8) Orbiting this star is a planet we call Earth.
9) Homo sapiens exists and originates on Earth.

Everything else about Honorverse is completely made up.

In fairness to those other treecat owners, Honor's link gave her an advantage there. I will concede that the existence of that link is in and of itself somewhat unreasonable and a flaw in the writing, but if you read or remember the short story "The Stray," you will know that such a link is not unprecedented in the Honorverse.

The link itself is not that bad, it's the fact that in addition to that, she does all the other stuff that makes her a Mary-Sue.

Have a very nice day.
-fgalkin

Since Mary Suedom is subjective, I can't really dispute that, so I will say only that I consider the books to be fairly well executed and will continue to enjoy them in the foreseeable future.

[frigidmagi]

And were prostitutes legal in Nelson's England?

Actually... Yes. Also in Nelson's England taking a mistress was still considered acceptable as long as you were discreet about it. This was deeply frowned upon in the country side and parts of Scottland but in London and other large cities it was considered part of the game and there was alot of winking.

As to the treecats... I suppose I should point out that at first they tried to hide their very existance. If a group of much larger, carnivious strange creatures with near magical (to my eyes) came to my neighborhood I'd be tempted to hid to. From my understanding not even 1% of Treecats ever leave Sphinx and the vast majority of treecats are never seen by a human being. While it may not be the smartest idea in the universe I can understand why the Treecats play as close to the vest as possible.

[Lord Iames Osari]

And were prostitutes legal in Nelson's England?

Actually... Yes. Also in Nelson's England taking a mistress was still considered acceptable as long as you were discreet about it. This was deeply frowned upon in the country side and parts of Scottland but in London and other large cities it was considered part of the game and there was alot of winking.

I stand corrected on that point, then. I still stand by my point that, given my reading of Manticoran society, the polygamous marriage would not be unacceptable. Keep in mind that by the time of the marriage, the Manticorans have had years, at least a decade, of exposure to the Graysons, where polygamy is the rule rather than the exception.

[Cynical Cat]

Look, anyway you slice it, sleeping with your proteges isn't something you do, especially when you are pushing to advance their career. It creates the impression they might be rising for bedroom skills rather than military ones and it smacks of abuse of power and position by the mentor. There's a reason you get hit with a ton of bricks if you get caught both in the military and in academia.

As for the tree cats having reason to conceal their intelligence, not by Honor's time. Members of the royal family have them and its permissable to carry around your tree cat while on duty. Stop and think for a moment. Could you get away with that for a cat or a dog, animals we humans have been bonding with for millenia, unless it was a working animal? No, by that point, which predates the beginning of On Basilisk Station, the tree cats have it golden.

As for Honor's Mary Sue status, it isn't one thing, its everything. If the "wowee Honor is so exceptional, kick ass, special, and cool and everyone who is good and virtious loves her so much" factor wasn't piled on quite as high, she would be fine. Instead it gets piled higher and higher until I stopped reading the series.

[frigidmagi]

Look, anyway you slice it, sleeping with your proteges isn't something you do, especially when you are pushing to advance their career. It creates the impression they might be rising for bedroom skills rather than military ones and it smacks of abuse of power and position by the mentor. There's a reason you get hit with a ton of bricks if you get caught both in the military and in academia.

I have to agree with this and from what I remember in War of Honor... This would be like having the Security of Defense openly sleeping with the Joint Chief of Staff, after having spent years protecting and advancing that person's career, during a major war that isn't going well. As White Haven was made 1st Space Lord and Honor herself basically given command of the navy.

Think about it. White Haven covered for Honor in Balisik Station (He was right to do so) and after Honor of the Queen lobbied successfully for her to be returned to active duty in Short Victorious War. He directly tried to save her career in Field of Dishonor (he failed) and IIRC was one of the officers who brought her back in Flag in Exile.

In matters of advancing Honor he's been in it up to his aristocratic neck.

[Lord Iames Osari]

Look, anyway you slice it, sleeping with your proteges isn't something you do, especially when you are pushing to advance their career. It creates the impression they might be rising for bedroom skills rather than military ones and it smacks of abuse of power and position by the mentor. There's a reason you get hit with a ton of bricks if you get caught both in the military and in academia.

True, but Honor had amply demonstrated her military skills by the time of the marriage, hell even before the smear campaign, at Basilisk, at Yeltsin's Star (multiple times), at Hancock, at Adler, at Cerberus, and at Sidemore. Her military credentials were established long before there was any hint of a relationship between her and White Haven, and by that time (as I said already), the patron-protege dynamic had disappeared anyway, thanks to Honor's accomplishments.

[frigidmagi]

White Haven becomes 1st Space Lord, Honor becomes CO of the biggest fleet the RMN has and then they get married, after rumors of an affair... Yeah I'll bet about 80$ that most people in the MSE are going to believe that Haven and Honor had been banging boots before the marriage.

Whether they have slept togather pre-marriage or not doesn't really matter in terms of popular belief as most could tell you.

[Lord Iames Osari]

Look, anyway you slice it, sleeping with your proteges isn't something you do, especially when you are pushing to advance their career. It creates the impression they might be rising for bedroom skills rather than military ones and it smacks of abuse of power and position by the mentor. There's a reason you get hit with a ton of bricks if you get caught both in the military and in academia.

I have to agree with this and from what I remember in War of Honor... This would be like having the Security of Defense openly sleeping with the Joint Chief of Staff, after having spent years protecting and advancing that person's career, during a major war that isn't going well. As White Haven was made 1st Space Lord and Honor herself basically given command of the navy.

Honor was never made head of the navy. The closest she's come is CO (Home Fleet), and that only because the Battle of Manticore took such a horrific toll on the RMN. White Haven was never 1st Space Lord; the 1st Space Lord has always been Caparelli (while the Centrists are in charge, at least), and White Haven became 1st Lord at the end of War of Honor.

Look at it from the varying points of view.

Manticoran Public:
Do they know White Haven was one of Honor's patrons? Probably not.
Do they know that Honor and White Haven are two of the RMN's greatest naval minds? Yes.
Do they know about the marriage? Unclear, but probably not yet.

Queen Elizabeth, Protector Benjamin, and Adm. Sir Caparelli:
Do they know that White Haven was one of Honor's patrons? I would be shocked if they didn't.
Do they know that Honor's military abilities are genuine? I should certainly hope so, given how many times she's proven it in the field (or whatever the appropriate naval idiom is).
Do they know that Honor's meteoric rise through both the military and social hierarchy has been earned almost entirely on the basis of her own talents? I think they do; their actions and words in the books seem to support this assumption.
Is there reason to believe that either of them will allow their personal feelings to get in the way of their duty? Not that has been seen so far. Whether that continues is of course unknown, but it is highly unlikely.
Have Honor and White Haven violated the Articles of War? No.

So, you've said that it would raise suspicions of misconduct. I ask, what misconduct? All the people who need to know about it do, they know that Honor is genuinely competent... I don't see the problem here.

Think about it. White Haven covered for Honor in Balisik Station (He was right to do so) and after Honor of the Queen lobbied successfully for her to be returned to active duty in Short Victorious War. He directly tried to save her career in Field of Dishonor (he failed) and IIRC was one of the officers who brought her back in Flag in Exile.

In matters of advancing Honor he's been in it up to his aristocratic neck.

Only insofar as he's consistently given her opportunities to advance herself, and those were many years ago, in-universe. (Oh, and you mean Honor Among Enemies instead of Flag in Exile.)

[frigidmagi]

Correct me if I'm wrong but Honor Among Enemies had her in the PRH prison system, the lost prison planet and all that didn't it? She didn't break out until Ashes of Victory from what I remember.

[Lord Iames Osari]

No, Honor Among Enemies was the one where she has the Qships in Silesia. The One where she gets captured is In Enemy Hands, and she gets out at the very end of the next one, Echoes of Honor.

[frigidmagi]

Alright then, my mistake. Thank you.

[Lord Iames Osari]

No problem.

[Cynical Cat]

The only reason everyone is cool with it is because everyone loves Honor and the reason everyone loves Honor is that everyone virtious loves Honor by writer fiat. This is career destroying material and considering Honor's collection of vile political enemies (because everyone with principles loves Honor) they would both be getting strung up on meat hooks politically and in the press. It would also probably against the fraternization rules of most militaries for someone to be sleeping with his subordinate.

[fgalkin]

Does offering advice automatically move one into the category of "mentor"?

When one gives a lot of it, yes. And he's still that father figure (and yes, her father is still alive, but he doesn't do much in the novels, and the character that fits the bill closest is White Haven

I see. And were prostitutes legal in Nelson's England? It's mentioned at least once in the earlier novels that White Haven has employed the services of "registered courtesans" *wink wink nudge nudge* to see to his physical needs, since Emily was a cripple. While I will not dispute that Nelsonian England is a not insignificant influence on the flavor of Manticoran society, I think that it is also a good deal more cosmopolitan than you give it credit for. While I doubt that polygamous marriages are common in Manticoran society, I equally doubt that they are unheard of to the point of taboo.

Yes, prositution and courtesans were quite accepted in 18th-early 19th century England. For example, I remember reading about this black courtesan, who serviced something like half of Parliament. You don't get prudish attitudes towards sex until the start of the Victorian age, some 30 years later.

And Manticore may have been exposed to Grayson, but what of it? 19th Century US had exposure to polygamous Mormons, yet they didn't become any more tolerant of polygamy because of it (in fact, quite the opposite happened).

"I would not take this thing if it lay by the side of the high way." In a single sentence, Faramir dismisses all possibility of taking it and is never troubled by it again.

He dismisses all possibility of taking, but we don't know whether the Ring still troubles him or not.

Well, I wasn't going to bring it up, but since you did, what is there about any fictional world that isn't there by author fiat? In Honorverse, I can count these things:

1) Homo sapiens exist.
2) Homo sapiens use tools of varying technological complexity.
3) Groups of Homo sapiens form organized, hierarchical societies
4) These societies periodically engage in warfare.
5) Stars exist and are separated by vast distances.
6) Stars are organized into galaxies.
6) Planets orbit some of those stars.
7) Among these stars there is one which we call the Sun.
8) Orbiting this star is a planet we call Earth.
9) Homo sapiens exists and originates on Earth.

Everything else about Honorverse is completely made up.

Yes, and the fact is that Weber created the treecats in such a way so that they are revealed to be sapient by Honor, and no one else. If that was not his intention from the beginning, it is clear that all of his subsequent descriptions of treecats are leading towards that goal.

Since Mary Suedom is subjective, I can't really dispute that, so I will say only that I consider the books to be fairly well executed and will continue to enjoy them in the foreseeable future.

I like the universe a great deal, it is merely Honor herself I have a problem with. Crown of Slaves, for example, is one of my favorite books precisely because there's almost no Honor in it.

The only reason everyone is cool with it is because everyone loves Honor and the reason everyone loves Honor is that everyone virtious loves Honor by writer fiat. This is career destroying material and considering Honor's collection of vile political enemies (because everyone with principles loves Honor) they would both be getting strung up on meat hooks politically and in the press. It would also probably against the fraternization rules of most militaries for someone to be sleeping with his subordinate.

This pretty much summs up my views on the matter. Even if the public doesn't know of it, the navy does, and Honor has enough enemies in the navy. They could make life truly miserable for her, yet for some reason, they don't.

And, well, if you know anything about public opinin, you know that facts are completely irrelevant to it. It doesn't matter that Honor was shining on her own before White Haven ever came into the picture, the public reaction would be absolutely scathing. So much, in fact, that victories or not, she'd probably have to resign her commission and go to Grayson for a while.

Have a very nice day.
-fgalkin

[Lord Iames Osari]

The only reason everyone is cool with it is because everyone loves Honor and the reason everyone loves Honor is that everyone virtious loves Honor by writer fiat. This is career destroying material and considering Honor's collection of vile political enemies (because everyone with principles loves Honor) they would both be getting strung up on meat hooks politically and in the press. It would also probably against the fraternization rules of most militaries for someone to be sleeping with his subordinate.

Well, if you had bothered reading the books, you would know that a) the credibility of the remnants of the Manticoran Opposition is effectively nil at this point, since they shot themselves in the face so badly with the treaty negotiations with Haven, and b) fraternization between members of the same chain of command is forbidden by Manticore's 19th Article of War, but since White Haven, as the 1st Lord, is a civilian with no legal command authority, it does not apply. And, once the Opposition gets its feet back under it and finds out about this, I fully expect them to use it to their advantage.

[fgalkin]

The only reason everyone is cool with it is because everyone loves Honor and the reason everyone loves Honor is that everyone virtious loves Honor by writer fiat. This is career destroying material and considering Honor's collection of vile political enemies (because everyone with principles loves Honor) they would both be getting strung up on meat hooks politically and in the press. It would also probably against the fraternization rules of most militaries for someone to be sleeping with his subordinate.

Well, if you had bothered reading the books, you would know that a) the credibility of the remnants of the Manticoran Opposition is effectively nil at this point, since they shot themselves in the face so badly with the treaty negotiations with Haven,

True, but it's not just the Evil Liberals and Paleocons who should be upset by this

and b) fraternization between members of the same chain of command is forbidden by Manticore's 19th Article of War, but since White Haven, as the 1st Lord, is a civilian with no legal command authority, it does not apply.

Quite convenient, that, but regardless, White Haven was her superior officer, and even though the marriage is legal now, there are bound to be questions about whether the relationship was going on while it wasn't.

And, once the Opposition gets its feet back under it and finds out about this, I fully expect them to use it to their advantage.

They better, or I just might give up on Weber altogether.

Have a very nice day.
-fgalkin

[Lord Iames Osari]

Does offering advice automatically move one into the category of "mentor"?

When one gives a lot of it, yes. And he's still that father figure (and yes, her father is still alive, but he doesn't do much in the novels, and the character that fits the bill closest is White Haven

How much Alfred Harrington is shown to do in the books is immaterial. The fact is that he, by virtue of being an available, nurturing parent (and Weber has never given us any reason to believe that he is anything else) would have filled that pyschological need. Requiring Honor's upbringing to be shown in the books is like requiring bathroom visits or any of the other ordinary daily activites to be shown.

Yes, prositution and courtesans were quite accepted in 18th-early 19th century England. For example, I remember reading about this black courtesan, who serviced something like half of Parliament. You don't get prudish attitudes towards sex until the start of the Victorian age, some 30 years later.

True, and I have already conceded this point.

And Manticore may have been exposed to Grayson, but what of it? 19th Century US had exposure to polygamous Mormons, yet they didn't become any more tolerant of polygamy because of it (in fact, quite the opposite happened).

The situations are not as analagous as you would imply; the 19th century USA was far less tolerant in general than Manticore is. Also, the fact that the Graysons are an important ally and significant contributor to the war against Haven would tend to make them viewed more positively than might otherwise be the case.

"I would not take this thing if it lay by the side of the high way." In a single sentence, Faramir dismisses all possibility of taking it and is never troubled by it again.

He dismisses all possibility of taking, but we don't know whether the Ring still troubles him or not.

We're never shown that he is troubled by it, so I think it safe to assume that he isn't. Generally, writers will how something bad happening, especially when related to such an important plot device.

Well, I wasn't going to bring it up, but since you did, what is there about any fictional world that isn't there by author fiat? In Honorverse, I can count these things:

1) Homo sapiens exist.
2) Homo sapiens use tools of varying technological complexity.
3) Groups of Homo sapiens form organized, hierarchical societies
4) These societies periodically engage in warfare.
5) Stars exist and are separated by vast distances.
6) Stars are organized into galaxies.
6) Planets orbit some of those stars.
7) Among these stars there is one which we call the Sun.
8) Orbiting this star is a planet we call Earth.
9) Homo sapiens exists and originates on Earth.

Everything else about Honorverse is completely made up.

Yes, and the fact is that Weber created the treecats in such a way so that they are revealed to be sapient by Honor, and no one else. If that was not his intention from the beginning, it is clear that all of his subsequent descriptions of treecats are leading towards that goal.

Obviously you missed my point, which was that your objection to the fact that something was so in the books "just because" was internally inconsistent and thus invalid, given that most of the content of the books is so "just because".

Since Mary Suedom is subjective, I can't really dispute that, so I will say only that I consider the books to be fairly well executed and will continue to enjoy them in the foreseeable future.

I like the universe a great deal, it is merely Honor herself I have a problem with. Crown of Slaves, for example, is one of my favorite books precisely because there's almost no Honor in it.

I also enjoyed Crown of Slaves very much.

The only reason everyone is cool with it is because everyone loves Honor and the reason everyone loves Honor is that everyone virtious loves Honor by writer fiat. This is career destroying material and considering Honor's collection of vile political enemies (because everyone with principles loves Honor) they would both be getting strung up on meat hooks politically and in the press. It would also probably against the fraternization rules of most militaries for someone to be sleeping with his subordinate.

This pretty much summs up my views on the matter. Even if the public doesn't know of it, the navy does, and Honor has enough enemies in the navy. They could make life truly miserable for her, yet for some reason, they don't.

Or they haven't yet. Don't discount the possibility of repercussions in future books.

And, well, if you know anything about public opinin, you know that facts are completely irrelevant to it. It doesn't matter that Honor was shining on her own before White Haven ever came into the picture, the public reaction would be absolutely scathing. So much, in fact, that victories or not, she'd probably have to resign her commission and go to Grayson for a while.

True. Although I suspect that Honor would just resign her Manticoran commission and then have High Admiral Matthews offer her services as a GSN Admiral to command 8th Fleet to Elizabeth.

The fact remains, however, that it is not public knowledge - yet. I expect that there will be more consequences than have been explored in the latest book.

[fgalkin]

Does offering advice automatically move one into the category of "mentor"?

When one gives a lot of it, yes. And he's still that father figure (and yes, her father is still alive, but he doesn't do much in the novels, and the character that fits the bill closest is White Haven

How much Alfred Harrington is shown to do in the books is immaterial. The fact is that he, by virtue of being an available, nurturing parent (and Weber has never given us any reason to believe that he is anything else) would have filled that pyschological need. Requiring Honor's upbringing to be shown in the books is like requiring bathroom visits or any of the other ordinary daily activites to be shown.

No, the fact is, when she ran into problems in her early career, it were Courvosier and White Haven, not her father, who came to her aid. They are much more important to her develpment as a person and a character than her father. Hell if you read the early books, she might as well have been raised in a an orphanage, for all the role her parents play in the story

Yes, prositution and courtesans were quite accepted in 18th-early 19th century England. For example, I remember reading about this black courtesan, who serviced something like half of Parliament. You don't get prudish attitudes towards sex until the start of the Victorian age, some 30 years later.

True, and I have already conceded this point.

And Manticore may have been exposed to Grayson, but what of it? 19th Century US had exposure to polygamous Mormons, yet they didn't become any more tolerant of polygamy because of it (in fact, quite the opposite happened).

The situations are not as analagous as you would imply; the 19th century USA was far less tolerant in general than Manticore is. Also, the fact that the Graysons are an important ally and significant contributor to the war against Haven would tend to make them viewed more positively than might otherwise be the case.

They might accept Graysons, but not their customs. They may not persecute them, but they won't necessarily allow their own people to follow suit. Hell, didn't Honor require a special persmission from a archbishop or something? I don't see real-world religious figures do that.

"I would not take this thing if it lay by the side of the high way." In a single sentence, Faramir dismisses all possibility of taking it and is never troubled by it again.

He dismisses all possibility of taking, but we don't know whether the Ring still troubles him or not.

We're never shown that he is troubled by it, so I think it safe to assume that he isn't. Generally, writers will how something bad happening, especially when related to such an important plot device.

Or, it could be because after he let Frodo go, he didn't see him again until after the ring was gone. Plus, he had more important things to worry about. Like, for example, not dying from his wound (and not being burned alive by daddy)

Well, I wasn't going to bring it up, but since you did, what is there about any fictional world that isn't there by author fiat? In Honorverse, I can count these things:

1) Homo sapiens exist.
2) Homo sapiens use tools of varying technological complexity.
3) Groups of Homo sapiens form organized, hierarchical societies
4) These societies periodically engage in warfare.
5) Stars exist and are separated by vast distances.
6) Stars are organized into galaxies.
6) Planets orbit some of those stars.
7) Among these stars there is one which we call the Sun.
8) Orbiting this star is a planet we call Earth.
9) Homo sapiens exists and originates on Earth.

Everything else about Honorverse is completely made up.

Yes, and the fact is that Weber created the treecats in such a way so that they are revealed to be sapient by Honor, and no one else. If that was not his intention from the beginning, it is clear that all of his subsequent descriptions of treecats are leading towards that goal.

Obviously you missed my point, which was that your objection to the fact that something was so in the books "just because" was internally inconsistent and thus invalid, given that most of the content of the books is so "just because".

Yes, I admit that I was wrong. It wasn't "just because" it was "because they needed to so that Honor can establish contact with them"

Since Mary Suedom is subjective, I can't really dispute that, so I will say only that I consider the books to be fairly well executed and will continue to enjoy them in the foreseeable future.

I like the universe a great deal, it is merely Honor herself I have a problem with. Crown of Slaves, for example, is one of my favorite books precisely because there's almost no Honor in it.

I also enjoyed Crown of Slaves very much.

The only reason everyone is cool with it is because everyone loves Honor and the reason everyone loves Honor is that everyone virtious loves Honor by writer fiat. This is career destroying material and considering Honor's collection of vile political enemies (because everyone with principles loves Honor) they would both be getting strung up on meat hooks politically and in the press. It would also probably against the fraternization rules of most militaries for someone to be sleeping with his subordinate.

This pretty much summs up my views on the matter. Even if the public doesn't know of it, the navy does, and Honor has enough enemies in the navy. They could make life truly miserable for her, yet for some reason, they don't.

Or they haven't yet. Don't discount the possibility of repercussions in future books.

And, well, if you know anything about public opinin, you know that facts are completely irrelevant to it. It doesn't matter that Honor was shining on her own before White Haven ever came into the picture, the public reaction would be absolutely scathing. So much, in fact, that victories or not, she'd probably have to resign her commission and go to Grayson for a while.

True. Although I suspect that Honor would just resign her Manticoran commission and then have High Admiral Matthews offer her services as a GSN Admiral to command 8th Fleet to Elizabeth.

She might, but I think it always has been important that Honor was an RMN officer. That's why she went from the duties of admiral, GSN, to that of a mere Commodore in the RMN, without much hesistation.

The fact remains, however, that it is not public knowledge - yet. I expect that there will be more consequences than have been explored in the latest book.

Like I said, there better be. Or I'll be disappointed

Have a very nice day.
-fgalkin

[frigidmagi]

The situations are not as analagous as you would imply; the 19th century USA was far less tolerant in general than Manticore is. Also, the fact that the Graysons are an important ally and significant contributor to the war against Haven would tend to make them viewed more positively than might otherwise be the case.

I feel inclined to point out that in various short stories, your average Manticorian has been revealed to be well... looking down his nose at the average Grayson. Soceities do not copy other soceities when they feel those soceities are lower then them. Otherwise you would see things like the U.S. copying Saudi Arabian social mores when we clearly know that isn't case. Hell Americans tend to refuse to copy European socieities! I have to say that it is very unlikely for average Manticorian to start sanctioning Polygamy due to a 10 year alliance with a star system that most of them would consider somewhat backwards in religious and social behaviors.

That being said, whatever happened to Sonja? She was rather inclined against Honor in the early and mid books but was I thought to be revealed of at least slightly better then Average moral fiber and intellence.

[Lord Iames Osari]

No, the fact is, when she ran into problems in her early career, it were Courvosier and White Haven, not her father, who came to her aid. They are much more important to her develpment as a person and a character than her father. Hell if you read the early books, she might as well have been raised in a an orphanage, for all the role her parents play in the story

Well, Alfred Harrington wasn't in a position to do anything about those problems. Some of them I'm not even sure he ever found out about until well after the fact. At any rate, I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree on how much of an influence on Honor's development as a person Alfred was. And while it's true that her parents didn't appear much in the early books, during that time Honor is on missions well away from Sphinx, and the books are much more focused on Honor and her ship.

They might accept Graysons, but not their customs. They may not persecute them, but they won't necessarily allow their own people to follow suit. Hell, didn't Honor require a special persmission from a archbishop or something? I don't see real-world religious figures do that.

Honor didn't require special permission, but the Alexanders did. Although you might be thinking of the Reverend Sullivan, who came to Manticore in part to make sure that Honor's child wouldn't be born a bastard and open a whole shitstorm in Grayson's domestic political arena.

Or, it could be because after he let Frodo go, he didn't see him again until after the ring was gone. Plus, he had more important things to worry about. Like, for example, not dying from his wound (and not being burned alive by daddy)

I suppose that's true.

True. Although I suspect that Honor would just resign her Manticoran commission and then have High Admiral Matthews offer her services as a GSN Admiral to command 8th Fleet to Elizabeth.

She might, but I think it always has been important that Honor was an RMN officer. That's why she went from the duties of admiral, GSN, to that of a mere Commodore in the RMN, without much hesistation.

That is true. I had forgotten that.

The situations are not as analagous as you would imply; the 19th century USA was far less tolerant in general than Manticore is. Also, the fact that the Graysons are an important ally and significant contributor to the war against Haven would tend to make them viewed more positively than might otherwise be the case.

I feel inclined to point out that in various short stories, your average Manticorian has been revealed to be well... looking down his nose at the average Grayson. Soceities do not copy other soceities when they feel those soceities are lower then them. Otherwise you would see things like the U.S. copying Saudi Arabian social mores when we clearly know that isn't case. Hell Americans tend to refuse to copy European socieities! I have to say that it is very unlikely for average Manticorian to start sanctioning Polygamy due to a 10 year alliance with a star system that most of them would consider somewhat backwards in religious and social behaviors.

That's true, but I remain unconvinced that Manticorans would be inclined to condemn a polygamous marriage in the first place.

That being said, whatever happened to Sonja? She was rather inclined against Honor in the early and mid books but was I thought to be revealed of at least slightly better then Average moral fiber and intellence.

Oh, she's still around. In fact, I think she was put in charge of BuWeaps.

[fgalkin]

Well, Alfred Harrington wasn't in a position to do anything about those problems. Some of them I'm not even sure he ever found out about until well after the fact. At any rate, I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree on how much of an influence on Honor's development as a person Alfred was. And while it's true that her parents didn't appear much in the early books, during that time Honor is on missions well away from Sphinx, and the books are much more focused on Honor and her ship.

You yourself had said that nothing in the book happens "just because." If Alfred Harrington was in no position to help Honor when she needed it, but White Haven was, then it was because Weber wanted it so.

Honor didn't require special permission, but the Alexanders did. Although you might be thinking of the Reverend Sullivan, who came to Manticore in part to make sure that Honor's child wouldn't be born a bastard and open a whole shitstorm in Grayson's domestic political arena.

Still, the fact that a polygamous marriage would get approval from a Manticoran religious leader already raises questions of plausibility.

That's true, but I remain unconvinced that Manticorans would be inclined to condemn a polygamous marriage in the first place.

Why wouldn't they? Its not like polygamy is widely accepted. Hell, it's stated that even Honor's mother, with her much more progressive views on sex would make Manticorans uncomfortable.

Have a very nice day.
-fgalkin

[Lord Iames Osari]

Well, Alfred Harrington wasn't in a position to do anything about those problems. Some of them I'm not even sure he ever found out about until well after the fact. At any rate, I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree on how much of an influence on Honor's development as a person Alfred was. And while it's true that her parents didn't appear much in the early books, during that time Honor is on missions well away from Sphinx, and the books are much more focused on Honor and her ship.

You yourself had said that nothing in the book happens "just because." If Alfred Harrington was in no position to help Honor when she needed it, but White Haven was, then it was because Weber wanted it so.

Before we continue this topic, I think we should nail down exactly which events in her early career we're talking about.

Still, the fact that a polygamous marriage would get approval from a Manticoran religious leader already raises questions of plausibility.

Why does it do that as opposed to being an indication that Manticorans (perish the thought) might not condemn a polygamous marriage out of hand?

Why wouldn't they? Its not like polygamy is widely accepted. Hell, it's stated that even Honor's mother, with her much more progressive views on sex would make Manticorans uncomfortable.

I remember that being stated about Sphinxians, but not Manticorans... then again, it has been a while.

[Cynical Cat]

Well, if you had bothered reading the books, you would know that a) the credibility of the remnants of the Manticoran Opposition is effectively nil at this point, since they shot themselves in the face so badly with the treaty negotiations with Haven, and b) fraternization between members of the same chain of command is forbidden by Manticore's 19th Article of War, but since White Haven, as the 1st Lord, is a civilian with no legal command authority, it does not apply. And, once the Opposition gets its feet back under it and finds out about this, I fully expect them to use it to their advantage.

I would bother reading the latter books if the series was worth reading. As for your points:

a) Convenient that they do nothing when handed this golden opportunity to hammer their enemy publicly and they could use the leverage. Especially since so many of her enemies are opportunist scumbags.

B) Perhaps technically correct, but certainly a violation of the spirit of those laws and only legal now. The suspicion will be that there will be a chain of improper behavior dating back before it was legal.

Of course, since Weber wants to have Honor in a menage a tois, all these problems won't show up.