Paternity fraud: does the husband deserve the risk?

GH: General Discussion

Moderator: LadyTevar

Kreshna Aryaguna Nurzaman
Sick, Twisted Fuck
Posts: 1949
Joined: Thu Jun 09, 2005 2:37 pm
19
Location: MENTAL HOSPITAL
Contact:

#1 Paternity fraud: does the husband deserve the risk?

Post by Kreshna Aryaguna Nurzaman »

Disturbing.
Paternity Fraud: When Men Are Forced To Support Their Ex-Wives' "Illegitimate" Children


The National Law Journal recently reported that "paternity fraud is rampant in the United States." Paternity fraud involves a woman's claiming, dishonestly, that a particular man has fathered children with her. By making such fraudulent claims, a woman is able to collect child support payments from a man who had nothing to do with siring her children. Indeed, even after a man has successfully disproved paternity, using DNA tests, courts have sometimes required the non-father to continue to pay child support.

Not surprisingly, such results have generated outrage among fathers' rights groups and have led to lawsuits as well as calls for legislative reform. Though the practice of paternity fraud is troubling, however, we should examine the context of such claims to determine to what extent, and against whom, an injustice is being perpetrated.


The Presumption of Paternity

Legally actionable paternity errors most commonly occur when a man and a woman are married to each other at the time of a child's conception and birth. Such errors have legal consequences because of something called the "presumption of paternity," which applies in most states.

The presumption holds that when a married woman gives birth to a child, her husband is the father of that child. For various legal purposes, it can be important to establish the paternity of a child. The presumption permits the question to be answered simply and without investigation.

In most cases, the presumption accurately reflects reality: When two people are married, the babies born to the wife generally are the husband's biological children. As is often the case with legal presumptions, then, this one corresponds to the likely truth.

Another example of such a reality-based presumption involves mailed letters: In the absence of evidence to the contrary, a litigant who proves she has mailed a letter with proper postage and the correct address listed has conclusively established that the addressee received the letter in due course. No direct proof of the letter's receipt is necessary. If the addressee introduces evidence that the letter never arrived, however, he can successfully rebut the presumption and disprove receipt of the letter.

In the case of the paternity presumption, by contrast, many states do not permit a man to disprove his presumed paternity, even if DNA evidence would positively establish that a child is not genetically his. Unlike the mailed letter presumption, the "presumption of paternity" therefore acts more as a legal command requiring married men to be fathers to their wives' children (except in exceptional circumstances) than as a device for arriving at the truth. Another way to put this is to describe the rule in question as an irrebuttable presumption.


Challenges to the Presumption of Paternity

Though fathers' rights activists have recently been concerned with disproving inaccurate allegations of paternity, a disgruntled critic of the presumption of paternity brought a very different sort of claim to the United States Supreme Court in the late 1980's.

In Michael H. v. Gerald D., the petitioner Michael H., had had an adulterous affair with Gerald D.'s wife, Carole D., which resulted in the birth of a child, Victoria D. Michael H. wanted visitation with his biological daughter and claimed that he had a fundamental constitutional right, as a father, to participate in Victoria's upbringing. But Carole D. did not want to include Michael H. in her daughter's life and responded to his claims by citing the California presumption of paternity. At that time, the presumption did not allow for rebuttal by someone outside the marriage.

Michael H. contended that the California rule, which denied biological fathers the right to act as fathers to their children, was unconstitutional.

The Supreme Court disagreed with Michael H., and in an opinion by Justice Scalia, held that no constitutional rights attach to a man who conceives a child in an affair with a married woman. Though the presumption of paternity may be counterfactual in an individual case, the State need not concern itself with the rights and interests of adulterous biological fathers. The California presumption was accordingly valid.

The Court might, of course, take a very different view when the faithful husband who supported his wife and putative child during marriage wishes, upon learning of his wife's deception, to stop supporting another man's offspring. Such a husband has done nothing wrong, after all, to give rise to the situation at hand. Indeed, it might appear to add insult to injury to force him literally to pay, in the form of child support, for his wife's having violated her marriage vows.


The "Fraudulent" Children

There is only one glitch in the story of the cuckolded man's outrage. It is the child. When a woman gives birth to a child and pretends that her husband is the biological father, a bond ordinarily forms between the man and the child, and the child comes to think of that man as his father. Most young children, in fact, have no idea what it means to say that someone is or is not their "biological father."

If a man lives in the house with mom and a child and is called "Daddy," he is - for all practical purposes - the child's father. After forming such a bond, the child grows attached and accordingly - perhaps - entitled to the father/child relationship on which he has come to rely. Were the mother to try to deny the man access to his "legal" child, in fact, many might view the acting father as entitled to override her wishes. From the child's perspective, it is fundamentally an act of betrayal for his "dad" to go into a court of law to prove that the relationship between them has been fraudulent. The state may accordingly have a compelling interest in protecting the rights of a child to his presumed father, an interest that justifies overriding the ex-husband's rights.

One response, of course, is that the actual biological fathers - the Michael H.'s of the world - could play the role of father when the cuckolds - the Gerald D.s, by analogy - wish to opt out. This response is ironic, perhaps, because a fathers' rights activist might well believe that men who adulterously sire unwanted children should have the right to a "financial abortion," as discussed in an earlier column, thus leaving the child effectively with no father at all. But even if that is so, the victim of a woman's infidelity arguably should not have to pay the price.

And hasn't the presumed father been injured as well? Hasn't he invested emotional energy and financial support where it did not belong? And shouldn't he therefore have his day in court? Unlike the adulterous biological father, the man whose wife bears another man's baby has not himself behaved dishonorably. He may therefore be well situated to claim a constitutional right to choose not to become a father to his wife's children.


Is the Presumption of Paternity An Anachronism?

Challengers to the irrebuttable presumption of paternity argue, further, that it reflects a bygone age, a time when women were (or at least, were believed to be) much more likely than they are now to be faithful to their husbands and when we could not definitively determine a child's paternity. Because we now live in an era in which men and women alike engage in adulterous affairs, and DNA can tell us with virtual certainty whether a man is or is not a child's father, it might appear senseless to cling to a legal presumption that serves to frustrate both the truth and the rights of ex-husbands.

Consider again, however, the perspective of the child. The best interests of that person might entail the refusal of a court to allow her "Daddy" to prove that he isn't "really" her father at all. Though the mother has injured her husband, first by cheating on him and then by lying to him about her baby's origins, the child - like the father - has innocently lived a life in reliance on that deception.

Unlike the father, moreover, the child never asked to become part of her mother's (or her father's) family or to have to place her trust in either one of them. Seen in this light, the irrebuttable presumption of paternity may protect the right of every child born to a marriage to have a mother and a father as long as both members of the couple live. On this view, the presumption is not a device for assessing a biological reality but, instead, a vehicle for creating a social one.

By getting married under such a legal regime, a man should perhaps assume the risk of playing the role of father to any children to whom his wife gives birth. When an act of fraud produces a human being, in other words, the law ought to consider the interests of that human being, even if no one meant for him to be born in the first place. The presumption of paternity - by protecting a legal fiction - makes it fruitless for a man to seek to "disprove" his paternal connection to a child. And this might be a good thing if it inclines fewer men to initiate proceedings that would deprive children of the only fathers they have ever known.

I'm thinking about this one. It seems to me that the writer uses "child rights" argument to make husbands pay for their wife's illegitimate child.
Unlike the father, moreover, the child never asked to become part of her mother's (or her father's) family
Well the father never asked his wife fucking the biker next door either; why he should take all the (legal) liabilities? Thoughts?


THIS one also disturbs me:
By getting married under such a legal regime, a man should perhaps assume the risk of playing the role of father to any children to whom his wife gives birth. When an act of fraud produces a human being, in other words, the law ought to consider the interests of that human being, even if no one meant for him to be born in the first place. The presumption of paternity - by protecting a legal fiction - makes it fruitless for a man to seek to "disprove" his paternal connection to a child. And this might be a good thing if it inclines fewer men to initiate proceedings that would deprive children of the only fathers they have ever known.
Well correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems to me, that even after admitting that presumption of paternity is unfair to the husband, the writer still insists that it should stay anyway, because presumption of paternity is needed "to protect the child's rights". Basically, she said that husbands should be discouraged to disprove his paternal connection to a child, because such thing would "deprive children of the only fathers they have ever known".

Furthermore, I have the impression that the writer agrees with the idea that married men should assume the risk of playing the role of father to any children to whom his wife gives birth.

Do you think it is fair? Do you think husband deserves such risks and liabilities? Discuss.
The Sick, Twisted Fuck | Sap #2 of the Bitter Trio | Knight of the e-mail | Evil Liberal Conspirator | Esoteric Order of Dagon | Weird TGODer

Share your free D&D character here.

:welcome :arrow: :sheepfucker: :thumbsup

So be it. If saying "NO" means being alone, then to hell with love, with romance, with marriage, and all the shit life keeps pumping at me. I'll walk alone, but with freedom and a healed pride.

NEVER buy a LiteOn CD/DVD Writer. Ever.
User avatar
LadyTevar
Pleasure Kitten Foreman
Posts: 13197
Joined: Fri Jan 13, 2006 8:25 pm
18
Location: In your lap, purring
Contact:

#2

Post by LadyTevar »

This is something I'm being trained to deal with at work.

My state does have the "Presumption of Paternity" law. However, the husband does have the right to take a paternity test and then sign an "Affidavit of Non-Paternity", which will remove his name from the birth certificate. This is part of a so-called 'three-way paternity' where the mother and the biological father may sign an Affidavit to add the true father's name to the child's certificate.

Our state also has an option allowing the mother to not name her husband on the birth certificate at all, leaving the "Father's Information" totally blank. If she later wants to add a father, the husband is informed and given the option to deny paternity.

Our state also has a policy of handing out packets to local hospitals which contain Paternity Affidavits for the parents to fill out then and there. The idea is to catch the (supposed) biological father in that first glow of "Wow! I have a Child!", and get them to take responsibility for the child.

This does have drawbacks as some mothers are little sluts who don't even know who their baby-daddy is, and there have been cases where the man who signed the paternity later finds out he is not the biological father. There are also cases where the mother and father break up, and the mother wants nothing more to do with the father, to the point she wants his name removed from the certificate. Those situations are handled through Family or Circuit Court, and the birth certificates are not changed until the Court Order can be processed.

Is it the best system? No. Is it a better system than some? Yes. The husband has the option to 'opt-out' if the situation warrants, while the mother also has options to deny paternity to all.
Image

Dogs are Man's Best Friend
Cats are Man's Adorable Little Serial Killers
User avatar
B4UTRUST
Dance Puppets Dance
Posts: 4867
Joined: Wed Jun 08, 2005 3:31 pm
19
Location: Chesapeake, Va
Contact:

#3

Post by B4UTRUST »

Which leads to the problem of the mother being a vindictive bitch if she chooses and holding that over the father's head.
"You will do what I want, or I will make sure you never see your child."

Or just to be spiteful and removing the father from the kid's life totally by getting the name removed so they don't even have that to show.
Image
Saint Annihilus - Patron Saint of Dealing with Stupid Customers
User avatar
The Cleric
Thy Kingdom Come...
Posts: 741
Joined: Wed Jun 08, 2005 1:34 pm
19
Location: The Right Hand Of GOD
Contact:

#4

Post by The Cleric »

the child grows attached and accordingly - perhaps - entitled to the father/child relationship on which he has come to rely.

I have a problem with that line. The child isn't "entitled" to jack shit. If I'm with a woman, and she becomes pregnant by another man, I am in no way responsible for any part of that child's wellbeing, physical or mental. I can CHOOSE to be a part, but I have no RESPONSIBILITY. Fucking unequal laws...
Never shall innocent blood be shed, yet the blood of the wicked shall flow like a river.

The three shall spread their blackened wings and be the vengeful striking hammer of god.
User avatar
Cpl Kendall
Disciple
Posts: 856
Joined: Mon Jun 13, 2005 2:16 pm
19
Location: Ontario, Canada

#5

Post by Cpl Kendall »

The Cleric wrote:

I have a problem with that line. The child isn't "entitled" to jack shit. If I'm with a woman, and she becomes pregnant by another man, I am in no way responsible for any part of that child's wellbeing, physical or mental. I can CHOOSE to be a part, but I have no RESPONSIBILITY. Fucking unequal laws...
I think their referring to instances where people who have been parents for a number of years find out that they are not the biological father of their child. In that case it's not so easy to shut off your emotions and just up and leave the family and cease contact with the child, as you are emotionally invested in the child as well. If I found out tomorrow that my two children where not mine I'd still stay because I raised them. They are mine in every way that counts.

Edit: spelling.
Last edited by Cpl Kendall on Wed Jul 25, 2007 9:58 am, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
LadyTevar
Pleasure Kitten Foreman
Posts: 13197
Joined: Fri Jan 13, 2006 8:25 pm
18
Location: In your lap, purring
Contact:

#6

Post by LadyTevar »

B4UTRUST wrote:Which leads to the problem of the mother being a vindictive bitch if she chooses and holding that over the father's head.
"You will do what I want, or I will make sure you never see your child."

Or just to be spiteful and removing the father from the kid's life totally by getting the name removed so they don't even have that to show.
That goes back to the Court Order. If she wants to be a spiteful bitch, she has to go up in front of a Judge and convince the judge there's a damn good reason to remove the husband as the father. The father is notified and allowed to have his day in court opposing the motion, so it's not done in a vacuum.

The cases I've seen where this has happened, the father is in jail or is under investigation for child or spousal abuse.
Image

Dogs are Man's Best Friend
Cats are Man's Adorable Little Serial Killers
User avatar
B4UTRUST
Dance Puppets Dance
Posts: 4867
Joined: Wed Jun 08, 2005 3:31 pm
19
Location: Chesapeake, Va
Contact:

#7

Post by B4UTRUST »

Ah. Ok. The way I was reading it(and being tired, obviously it was the wrong way) was that the woman could pretty much do it any time she got a wild hair up her ass and given the current state of the system that the judge would probably do it, simply because it is the mother of the children.

There also exists another issue in a lot of states that this article didn't mention. That's women getting custody of the kids during the divorce irregardless of other circumstances. I'd have to go back and find some of the cases I read on it, but some of them were along the lines of the father had a stable job, the father had a totally clean record, no proof, allegations or hints that he had been anything other then a great husband and father and the main reason the divorce was happening was that the wife was a useless whore. Wife got the kids, dispite having no education, no job, no financial stability or future, because in the middle of court she made wild allegations that the children were abused by him. Judge took her side without any evidence and awarded her soul custody, him no visitation rights and had to pay child support and spousal support.

And that's not the only time it has happened under similar circumstances.
Image
Saint Annihilus - Patron Saint of Dealing with Stupid Customers
User avatar
The Cleric
Thy Kingdom Come...
Posts: 741
Joined: Wed Jun 08, 2005 1:34 pm
19
Location: The Right Hand Of GOD
Contact:

#8

Post by The Cleric »

Cpl Kendall wrote:
The Cleric wrote: I have a problem with that line. The child isn't "entitled" to jack shit. If I'm with a woman, and she becomes pregnant by another man, I am in no way responsible for any part of that child's wellbeing, physical or mental. I can CHOOSE to be a part, but I have no RESPONSIBILITY. Fucking unequal laws...
I think their referring to instances where people who have been parents for a number of years find out that they are not the biological father of their child. In that case it's not so easy to shut off your emotions and just up and leave the family and cease contact with the child, as you are emotionally invested in the child as well. If I found out tomorrow that my two children where not mine I'd still stay because I raised them. They are mine in every way that counts.

Edit: spelling.
Right, but they're saying the father MUST stay because the child has a RIGHT to him being around. Not that the dad should stick around because he's emotionally invested.
Never shall innocent blood be shed, yet the blood of the wicked shall flow like a river.

The three shall spread their blackened wings and be the vengeful striking hammer of god.
User avatar
The Cleric
Thy Kingdom Come...
Posts: 741
Joined: Wed Jun 08, 2005 1:34 pm
19
Location: The Right Hand Of GOD
Contact:

#9

Post by The Cleric »

B4UTRUST wrote:Ah. Ok. The way I was reading it(and being tired, obviously it was the wrong way) was that the woman could pretty much do it any time she got a wild hair up her ass and given the current state of the system that the judge would probably do it, simply because it is the mother of the children.

There also exists another issue in a lot of states that this article didn't mention. That's women getting custody of the kids during the divorce irregardless of other circumstances. I'd have to go back and find some of the cases I read on it, but some of them were along the lines of the father had a stable job, the father had a totally clean record, no proof, allegations or hints that he had been anything other then a great husband and father and the main reason the divorce was happening was that the wife was a useless whore. Wife got the kids, dispite having no education, no job, no financial stability or future, because in the middle of court she made wild allegations that the children were abused by him. Judge took her side without any evidence and awarded her soul custody, him no visitation rights and had to pay child support and spousal support.

And that's not the only time it has happened under similar circumstances.
This is why I will not get married without a pre-nup.
Never shall innocent blood be shed, yet the blood of the wicked shall flow like a river.

The three shall spread their blackened wings and be the vengeful striking hammer of god.
User avatar
Cynical Cat
Arch-Magician
Posts: 11930
Joined: Thu Jun 09, 2005 8:53 pm
19
Location: Ice Sarcophagus outside a ruined Jedi Temple
Contact:

#10

Post by Cynical Cat »

The legal system in Western nations has historically been biased in granting custody in favor of the mother. The underlying bias is that kids are better off with their mothers, but the best interests of the children is supposed to be the underlying reasoning. There's been some movement away from that in recent years.

Determining paternity is relatively straightforward compared to deciding custody and child support, although both issues are obviously related. The issue of raising children that aren't biologically yours and custody of them in the event of divorce is even more complicated. It's an area of the law where I expect legal fuck ups to be common.
It's not that I'm unforgiving, it's that most of the people who wrong me are unrepentant assholes.
Kreshna Aryaguna Nurzaman
Sick, Twisted Fuck
Posts: 1949
Joined: Thu Jun 09, 2005 2:37 pm
19
Location: MENTAL HOSPITAL
Contact:

#11

Post by Kreshna Aryaguna Nurzaman »

My objection to the article posted in the OP is because it proposed a false dillemma between child's rights and those of the husband; that the only way to protect the child's interests it to deny the husband's legal rights to disprove the paternal connection.


The Cleric wrote:This is why I will not get married without a pre-nup.
I've been actually keeping such stance since some years ago, only that mine is something more like "under any circumstances" than merely "without a pre-nup".
The Sick, Twisted Fuck | Sap #2 of the Bitter Trio | Knight of the e-mail | Evil Liberal Conspirator | Esoteric Order of Dagon | Weird TGODer

Share your free D&D character here.

:welcome :arrow: :sheepfucker: :thumbsup

So be it. If saying "NO" means being alone, then to hell with love, with romance, with marriage, and all the shit life keeps pumping at me. I'll walk alone, but with freedom and a healed pride.

NEVER buy a LiteOn CD/DVD Writer. Ever.
User avatar
Comrade Tortoise
Exemplar
Posts: 4832
Joined: Thu Jun 09, 2005 1:33 am
19
Location: Land of steers and queers indeed
Contact:

#12

Post by Comrade Tortoise »

The Cleric wrote:
the child grows attached and accordingly - perhaps - entitled to the father/child relationship on which he has come to rely.

I have a problem with that line. The child isn't "entitled" to jack shit. If I'm with a woman, and she becomes pregnant by another man, I am in no way responsible for any part of that child's wellbeing, physical or mental. I can CHOOSE to be a part, but I have no RESPONSIBILITY. Fucking unequal laws...
I am not so sure. Strictly speaking you may not necessarily have a legal responsibility toward the child. But certainly, if the child is sufficiently old to have formed that father-child bond with you, you have a moral obligation to said child. Regardless of whether or not you are particularly emotionally attached.

Whether that would transfer to a legal obligation is an open question.

I am just glad there is ZERO chance I will ever have to deal with this, unless I am drunk, she is drunk, and we both think the other is Sean Connery.
Last edited by Comrade Tortoise on Thu Jul 26, 2007 12:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"Nothing in biology makes sense except in the light of evolution."
- Theodosius Dobzhansky

There is no word harsh enough for this. No verbal edge sharp and cold enough to set forth the flaying needed. English is to young and the elder languages of the earth beyond me. ~Frigid

The Holocaust was an Amazing Logistical Achievement~Havoc
User avatar
B4UTRUST
Dance Puppets Dance
Posts: 4867
Joined: Wed Jun 08, 2005 3:31 pm
19
Location: Chesapeake, Va
Contact:

#13

Post by B4UTRUST »

But why should there be a moral obligation? After all, if the mother had the same morals chances are the kid wouldn't be there to begin with. Why should the moral good be to suffer for someone else's mistakes or indiscretions.

If there is a moral obligation to be met here it's that the mother should have kept her legs closed to begin with and stayed with her husband instead of dropping some other guy's kid on her husband. There's the moral obligation that should become legal. If you're going to be a cheating whore, you're legally responsible to deal with your own fuckups, not whatever man was unfortuante enough to marry you.
Image
Saint Annihilus - Patron Saint of Dealing with Stupid Customers
User avatar
Comrade Tortoise
Exemplar
Posts: 4832
Joined: Thu Jun 09, 2005 1:33 am
19
Location: Land of steers and queers indeed
Contact:

#14

Post by Comrade Tortoise »

It is not about the wife's indiscretion. The child did not ask to be born. And if you did stick around long enough to form a bond with that child, for that child to be physically and emotionally dependent on you, you have an obligation to that child. It doesnt matter whether the kid is yours, or whether your wife cheated on you. The offspring is independent of those other considerations.

IE. What mom did was wrong, but that does not give you license to do harm to the child, who is innocent of mother's wrongdoing.
"Nothing in biology makes sense except in the light of evolution."
- Theodosius Dobzhansky

There is no word harsh enough for this. No verbal edge sharp and cold enough to set forth the flaying needed. English is to young and the elder languages of the earth beyond me. ~Frigid

The Holocaust was an Amazing Logistical Achievement~Havoc
User avatar
The Cleric
Thy Kingdom Come...
Posts: 741
Joined: Wed Jun 08, 2005 1:34 pm
19
Location: The Right Hand Of GOD
Contact:

#15

Post by The Cleric »

However, the husband is also free of wrong doing and did not ask for the child to be born. Who's rights are you willing to deny, the childs or the husbands?





And there is no such thing as moral obligation.
Never shall innocent blood be shed, yet the blood of the wicked shall flow like a river.

The three shall spread their blackened wings and be the vengeful striking hammer of god.
User avatar
Comrade Tortoise
Exemplar
Posts: 4832
Joined: Thu Jun 09, 2005 1:33 am
19
Location: Land of steers and queers indeed
Contact:

#16

Post by Comrade Tortoise »

The Cleric wrote:However, the husband is also free of wrong doing and did not ask for the child to be born. Who's rights are you willing to deny, the childs or the husbands?





And there is no such thing as moral obligation.
Bullshit. Of course there is such a thing as a moral obligation, unless you are an objectivist. Some actions are obligatory no matter what ethical system you use. If a utilitarian you are obligated to find the most optimum balance between pleasure and pain, if you are a deontologist you have moral duties (categorical imperitive in the case of Kant)

You are morally obligated to not take advantage of a person who is intoxicated, you are morally obligated to not murder someone. You are morally obligated to help someone in need if you have the ability. You have moral obligations. Whether you like it or not. And society as a whole has a duty and need to enforce those obligations.

Legally speaking, I dont think presuming legal paternity is the answer. I dont think that the innocent party (in this case the non-biological father) should be held fiscally responsible for his wife's philandering. But that does not stop him from having an obligation to promote the emotional well-being of a child who has become emotionally bonded with him. Sort of like how I dont think that adopted children should be stripped from their adopted parents because 5 years ago, the biological daddy couldnt be contacted to give up his parental rights. The rights of that innocent child to not be emotionally fucked up, morally (if not yet legally) trump the rights of the biological parents, and by the same token, trump the rights of a non-biological guardian.

If you can get out of the arrangement without hurting the kid, say they are too young at the time to perceive your leaving, or if you work to slowly change the nature of the social bond so that the kid now has those feelings about the biological father, so be it. But you dont get to pack up and leave. You may be able to get away with it legally, but not morally.
"Nothing in biology makes sense except in the light of evolution."
- Theodosius Dobzhansky

There is no word harsh enough for this. No verbal edge sharp and cold enough to set forth the flaying needed. English is to young and the elder languages of the earth beyond me. ~Frigid

The Holocaust was an Amazing Logistical Achievement~Havoc
User avatar
frigidmagi
Dragon Death-Marine General
Posts: 14757
Joined: Wed Jun 08, 2005 11:03 am
19
Location: Alone and unafraid

#17

Post by frigidmagi »

This is my feeling. A man should not be held under obligation for children that are not his, especially when he has been lied to about their origin.

It should be treated has a private choice, if a man decides to keep up the bonds even only on a social level or to take finical responsiblity for the children, that's his call and it should be respected.

However if a man finds out that his wife has been lying to him, cheating on him and his life is pretty much a lie and he would like to leave and start over with no strings attached. That is also his call and should be respected.
"it takes two sides to end a war but only one to start one. And those who do not have swords may still die upon them." Tolken
User avatar
B4UTRUST
Dance Puppets Dance
Posts: 4867
Joined: Wed Jun 08, 2005 3:31 pm
19
Location: Chesapeake, Va
Contact:

#18

Post by B4UTRUST »

If the woman I'm with is a lying cheating whore of a bitch who cheated on me, had a kid by another man and then played it off as it were my own I have no obligation, moral or otherwise to that child or the mother. In fact, I'd probably try to file a civil suit against the bitch for mental damages and other monetary amounts paid out to the whore. No guarentee that I'd win it but I'd try it anyhow.

And if that kid is 5 months old, 5 years or 15 years, it causes no obligation to the non-biological father if he's been used. If you want a reason as to why, because life sucks. Not everybody gets the happy homemaker childhood they deserve. Deal with it. There's counciling. I will not be saddled with the burdon of another man's simply because my woman decided to go out and fuck the town. My rights trump those of the fuck trophey. And I say this because I have earned my rights to do so. I have worked and paid my dues and debts.
Image
Saint Annihilus - Patron Saint of Dealing with Stupid Customers
User avatar
LadyTevar
Pleasure Kitten Foreman
Posts: 13197
Joined: Fri Jan 13, 2006 8:25 pm
18
Location: In your lap, purring
Contact:

#19

Post by LadyTevar »

B4UTRUST wrote: I will not be saddled with the burdon of another man's simply because my woman decided to go out and fuck the town. My rights trump those of the fuck trophey. And I say this because I have earned my rights to do so. I have worked and paid my dues and debts.
And when that 5 yr old baby girl looks up at you with big puppy-dog eyes and asked "Daddy.. don't you wuv me anymore?" what will you do?
Image

Dogs are Man's Best Friend
Cats are Man's Adorable Little Serial Killers
Kreshna Aryaguna Nurzaman
Sick, Twisted Fuck
Posts: 1949
Joined: Thu Jun 09, 2005 2:37 pm
19
Location: MENTAL HOSPITAL
Contact:

#20

Post by Kreshna Aryaguna Nurzaman »

LadyTevar wrote:
B4UTRUST wrote: I will not be saddled with the burdon of another man's simply because my woman decided to go out and fuck the town. My rights trump those of the fuck trophey. And I say this because I have earned my rights to do so. I have worked and paid my dues and debts.
And when that 5 yr old baby girl looks up at you with big puppy-dog eyes and asked "Daddy.. don't you wuv me anymore?" what will you do?
In most cases, it is very likely that the daddy will keep her nonetheless. However, if the daddy chooses to 'opt-out', don't you think it is still his right to do so? For example, in a case where the discovery of a fraudulent child is followed by immediate divorce, should the father be burdened to pay alimony for a child that is not even biologically his?

Or maybe the article is right; that a man should nonetheless assume the risk of playing the role of father to any children to whom his wife gives birth? But won't it just further discourage men to get married?
Last edited by Kreshna Aryaguna Nurzaman on Fri Jul 27, 2007 11:06 am, edited 2 times in total.
The Sick, Twisted Fuck | Sap #2 of the Bitter Trio | Knight of the e-mail | Evil Liberal Conspirator | Esoteric Order of Dagon | Weird TGODer

Share your free D&D character here.

:welcome :arrow: :sheepfucker: :thumbsup

So be it. If saying "NO" means being alone, then to hell with love, with romance, with marriage, and all the shit life keeps pumping at me. I'll walk alone, but with freedom and a healed pride.

NEVER buy a LiteOn CD/DVD Writer. Ever.
User avatar
LadyTevar
Pleasure Kitten Foreman
Posts: 13197
Joined: Fri Jan 13, 2006 8:25 pm
18
Location: In your lap, purring
Contact:

#21

Post by LadyTevar »

Children may not have the *right*, but they do have the expectation that Mommy and Daddy will always be there. And, as the saying goes, you may not be the Father, but you are the Daddy who held her when she was sick, told her bedtime stories, and you're the one that she tells people proudly "My Daddy can do ANYTHING!"

So... it all boils down to one unhappy thought. Which is more important, the bloodlink, or the love-link?
Image

Dogs are Man's Best Friend
Cats are Man's Adorable Little Serial Killers
User avatar
The Cleric
Thy Kingdom Come...
Posts: 741
Joined: Wed Jun 08, 2005 1:34 pm
19
Location: The Right Hand Of GOD
Contact:

#22

Post by The Cleric »

LadyTevar wrote:
B4UTRUST wrote: I will not be saddled with the burdon of another man's simply because my woman decided to go out and fuck the town. My rights trump those of the fuck trophey. And I say this because I have earned my rights to do so. I have worked and paid my dues and debts.
And when that 5 yr old baby girl looks up at you with big puppy-dog eyes and asked "Daddy.. don't you wuv me anymore?" what will you do?
Taser that bitch, right in the throat.

Seriously, most men WOULD stick around. But they should not be FORCED to do so against their will.
Never shall innocent blood be shed, yet the blood of the wicked shall flow like a river.

The three shall spread their blackened wings and be the vengeful striking hammer of god.
User avatar
The Cleric
Thy Kingdom Come...
Posts: 741
Joined: Wed Jun 08, 2005 1:34 pm
19
Location: The Right Hand Of GOD
Contact:

#23

Post by The Cleric »

LadyTevar wrote:Children may not have the *right*, but they do have the expectation that Mommy and Daddy will always be there. And, as the saying goes, you may not be the Father, but you are the Daddy who held her when she was sick, told her bedtime stories, and you're the one that she tells people proudly "My Daddy can do ANYTHING!"

So... it all boils down to one unhappy thought. Which is more important, the bloodlink, or the love-link?
Legally? The bloodlink. And as B4 said, broken homes are quite common. No one has a right to have both a mommy and a daddy stick around. It would be nice if they did, but life is not in the least bit fair. Tough shit.
Never shall innocent blood be shed, yet the blood of the wicked shall flow like a river.

The three shall spread their blackened wings and be the vengeful striking hammer of god.
User avatar
B4UTRUST
Dance Puppets Dance
Posts: 4867
Joined: Wed Jun 08, 2005 3:31 pm
19
Location: Chesapeake, Va
Contact:

#24

Post by B4UTRUST »

But Tev, you're also forgetting something when you talk about the puppy-dog eyes and the gleeful expression on their faces when they talk about their "daddies."

What are my feelings going to be towards that child once I find out it's not mine? That the kid I've been raising for those years isn't my kid, that I've been lied to and decieved all this time.

Isn't there just as strong a likely hood that I would sit there and become very bitter and angry towards that child, it being a constant reminder of its mother's infidelity, lying, cheating, etc. Which could potentially lead to an abusive situation where I take my anger at the mother out on the child. Not saying that it WOULD happen but it COULD happen and probably DOES happen in some places. So then you're stuck with a child that isn't yours that now every time you see it you're reminded that your wife or ex-wife is a lying piece of shit and the child suffers for it.

In the end, there is no right solution to this problem because the entire situation from the word go, is wrong.
Image
Saint Annihilus - Patron Saint of Dealing with Stupid Customers
Kreshna Aryaguna Nurzaman
Sick, Twisted Fuck
Posts: 1949
Joined: Thu Jun 09, 2005 2:37 pm
19
Location: MENTAL HOSPITAL
Contact:

#25

Post by Kreshna Aryaguna Nurzaman »

B4UTRUST wrote:What are my feelings going to be towards that child once I find out it's not mine? That the kid I've been raising for those years isn't my kid, that I've been lied to and decieved all this time.

Isn't there just as strong a likely hood that I would sit there and become very bitter and angry towards that child, it being a constant reminder of its mother's infidelity, lying, cheating, etc. Which could potentially lead to an abusive situation where I take my anger at the mother out on the child.
Precisely. That's why I believe that 'opting out' should remain an option. The article in the OP, on the other hand, suggests to completely remove the option by eliminating the husband's legal rights to not become a father to his wife's illegitimate children.

If a daddy decides to adopt his wife's illegitimate kid, I believe it should be something that out of his own choice instead of being forced by law.
The Sick, Twisted Fuck | Sap #2 of the Bitter Trio | Knight of the e-mail | Evil Liberal Conspirator | Esoteric Order of Dagon | Weird TGODer

Share your free D&D character here.

:welcome :arrow: :sheepfucker: :thumbsup

So be it. If saying "NO" means being alone, then to hell with love, with romance, with marriage, and all the shit life keeps pumping at me. I'll walk alone, but with freedom and a healed pride.

NEVER buy a LiteOn CD/DVD Writer. Ever.
Post Reply