40K Imperialium vs Chaos.

[frigidmagi]

Okay, this isn't meant in a military sense, but in an average everyday sense.

Which is a better place to live the average world of the Empire? Or the average Chaos world?

Fire away folks.

[Josh]

There's a reason why the Imperium is the best choice.

Yeah, on a 40K world, the average citizen toils away in backbreaking anonymity, leading a nasty, brutal, short life.

But at least they aren't subject to random mutations every five minutes, and the overseers are generally more negligent than actively brutal, as compared with Chaos worlds.

Daemon World gives a glimpse of life on a planet in the Eye of Terror. It isn't a pleasant affair.

[Anonymous]

Well, to slightly refine what I just said on AIM, Obviously, the adverage imperial world is better than the adverage chaos one.

Though, the empire already serves chaos in all but name. Only the brute power of the emperor keeps them in check.

The Empire already spills enough blood every day to keep Khorne happy for eons, they blast apart entire populations for sins ranging from not paying their taxes to the extermination of lower tech alien life forms for their planets. They kill of entire loyal populations for the mere possiblity that a few heretics might be among them.

Better a thosand innocents should die than one unrightous being should go unpunished.

They have enough cultism and superstition to keep Tzeetch happy forever. their hive slums and death world settlements rest in enough filth for Nurgle to dance in for eons. Their nobles indulge in pleasures easily sick enough for Slaanesh. (look at the Spira hunters)

The Imperium slays a thosand psionics every day to keep the emperor alive, another hundred thosand to navigate. unless you happen to live on the very few worlds like Macraga, (the ultra marine homeworld) which are actually vaugly liveable, you can look foward only to an existance of backbreaking labour, disease and death.

Unless you get really unlucky and are drafted into the guard, or gain the attention of the inquisition, or any of the other terminal fates which we always hear about in the game material.

[Anonymous]

As for the central question. I think a distinction needs to be made between Chaos Demons and Chaos Marines. The Marines do everything the imperium does, and probabbly enjoy it a bit more. The Demons do all that, AND randomly mutate you, AND rip your soul from your living body.

So, yeah, imperium is better, vaugly.

[frigidmagi]

As for the central question. I think a distinction needs to be made between Chaos Demons and Chaos Marines. The Marines do everything the imperium does, and probabbly enjoy it a bit more. The Demons do all that, AND randomly mutate you, AND rip your soul from your living body

One problem, Chaos Marines become Deamons if given enough time and power, there is hella overlap between the two.

[Josh]

The Empire already spills enough blood every day to keep Khorne happy for eons, they blast apart entire populations for sins ranging from not paying their taxes to the extermination of lower tech alien life forms for their planets. They kill of entire loyal populations for the mere possiblity that a few heretics might be among them.

Better a thosand innocents should die than one unrightous being should go unpunished.

Exterminatus is not so widely employed as is often suggested. There's a reason the Inquisition is mostly a surgical tool. (Surgical in the Imperium sense, anyway.)

Most heresies are resolved through small-unit action, not destruction of the planetary population.

The Imperium rarely shrinks from mass death, but they do have a very refined sense of cost-benefit ratios from such activities. Exterminatusing a hive world can fuck the recruitment of Guard for a whole subsector or more.

They have enough cultism and superstition to keep Tzeetch happy forever. their hive slums and death world settlements rest in enough filth for Nurgle to dance in for eons. Their nobles indulge in pleasures easily sick enough for Slaanesh. (look at the Spira hunters)

A) Cultism and superstition in the service of an alternate deity figure, the Emperor, that serves to protect them from cultism and superstition in the service of Chaos.

B) Hive worlds are pits of squalor, agreed.

C) Slaanesh prefers even more extreme forms of entertainment, and the debaucheries of the nobility are a drop in the bucket for an entity on the scale of Slaanesh, who came about from the extreme degeneracy of the entire Eldar race.

The Imperium slays a thosand psionics every day to keep the emperor alive, another hundred thosand to navigate. unless you happen to live on the very few worlds like Macraga, (the ultra marine homeworld) which are actually vaugly liveable, you can look foward only to an existance of backbreaking labour, disease and death.

A hundred a day for the Emperor, and less for the Astronomicon, which drains the psykers gradually.

Furthermore, the Hive Worlds are not the majority of worlds and quite likely not even the majority of population for the Imperium. (Although they probably constitute a very large minority of the population.) Most worlds fall under other categories, from agriworlds to worlds of more normal population densities, such as ours. Which doesn't mean that life on those worlds doesn't suck. But the hive worlds tend to be an extreme example, as are the deathworlds.

[Anonymous]

Exterminatus is not so widely employed as is often suggested. There's a reason the Inquisition is mostly a surgical tool. (Surgical in the Imperium sense, anyway.)

It's also a wide ranging tool of colonization. Check out Codex Tau. Also, look at all the times purges are mentioned. While they might not be as wide scale as exterminatus, they do involve entire worlds being nuclearly bombarded.

Most heresies are resolved through small-unit action, not destruction of the planetary population.

true, though there's a lot of heresy to go around. They've still killed far more people I think than the world eaters

The Imperium rarely shrinks from mass death, but they do have a very refined sense of cost-benefit ratios from such activities. Exterminatusing a hive world can fuck the recruitment of Guard for a whole subsector or more.

OTOH, the inquisition is pretty bloodthirsty about this stuff, look at the first battle of Armogedan, not only did they kill the population they sent every guard who fort their to the gulags.

A) Cultism and superstition in the service of an alternate deity figure, the Emperor, that serves to protect them from cultism and superstition in the service of Chaos.

I think you can serve both really. That's certainly the impression I got from Battlefleet gothic.

C) Slaanesh prefers even more extreme forms of entertainment, and the debaucheries of the nobility are a drop in the bucket for an entity on the scale of Slaanesh, who came about from the extreme degeneracy of the entire Eldar race.

yep. That's why he's the weakest of the chaos dieties. Still, mankind has a way to go yet before they can be the elder.

A hundred a day for the Emperor, and less for the Astronomicon, which drains the psykers gradually.

Furthermore, the Hive Worlds are not the majority of worlds and quite likely not even the majority of population for the Imperium. (Although they probably constitute a very large minority of the population.) Most worlds fall under other categories, from agriworlds to worlds of more normal population densities, such as ours. Which doesn't mean that life on those worlds doesn't suck. But the hive worlds tend to be an extreme example, as are the deathworlds.

hum... my source material says 1000, but it's a little out of date so I'll take your word for it.

[Josh]

It's also a wide ranging tool of colonization. Check out Codex Tau. Also, look at all the times purges are mentioned. While they might not be as wide scale as exterminatus, they do involve entire worlds being nuclearly bombarded.

Exterminatus is by no means a widespread colonization tool. It involves the complete destruction of the existing biosphere, which is horribly inefficient when one wants to come in and colonize.

Now wiping out the space commies is just good business, on the other hand. Eat it, you little blue freaks.

Purges are often mentioned because the stories focus on those whose work includes purges. It's not so routine as all that. Furthermore, purges can involve anything up to exterminatus, they can be broad or discretely targeted.

true, though there's a lot of heresy to go around. They've still killed far more people I think than the world eaters

Almost certainly they have. The World Eaters number less than fifty thousand, probably less than ten thousand by now. By sheer scale, the Imperium has easily killed more than them, and even if they were more benevolent would have.

However, the World Eaters have killed all out of proportion to their size.

OTOH, the inquisition is pretty bloodthirsty about this stuff, look at the first battle of Armogedan, not only did they kill the population they sent every guard who fort their to the gulags.

The Inquisition, by necessity, is callous, but generally not bloodthirsty. There's a vast difference.

I think you can serve both really. That's certainly the impression I got from Battlefleet gothic.

It's a matter of percentages. If the larger percentage is served by faith in the 'God Emperor', then what is lost on the fringes is worth it.

yep. That's why he's the weakest of the chaos dieties. Still, mankind has a way to go yet before they can be the elder.

They'll probably never be the Eldar- it's just not in the human makeup. Our emotions are pale shadows of their passions.

hum... my source material says 1000, but it's a little out of date so I'll take your word for it.

Current opening fluff for all the novels... 'A hundred a day'.

[Brother-Captain Gaius]

Petro did a nice job of explaining things. One addition and one disagreement:

Eisenhorn provides us with an excellent close-up on Imperial life. It shows nice worlds (complete with carnivals, leisure time, general happiness and parties, all for the 'working class') and it shows nasty worlds. The Imperium is vast and varied. It's also a first-hand perspective of Inquisitorial business, and while some of the internal conflict is a little two-dimensional for my tastes, it's still a useful and telling account.

They'll probably never be the Eldar- it's just not in the human makeup. Our emotions are pale shadows of their passions.

I must disagree with this. After the birth of Slaanesh, the Chaos Gods have all but forgotten the Eldar in favor of bigger fish to fry, namely the psychically-emerging Mankind. It's true that typically the Eldar exhibit more skill and higher ratios of psykers, but then, they have had millions of years of practice. Humanity has more raw, untapped potential... look at any alpha-plus psyker, or a Librarian. They chuck explosive death around like candy.

[Cynical Cat]

Got to dispute parts of your last point Brother-Captain. The chaos gods are generated by emotion and the eldar are more capable of emotional extremes. While humanity has tremendous psychic potential, they just aren't as tasty. Its a matter of one really hard to get candy bar going against the rest of a high end candy store. That one bar is unequalled, but there is a lot of really good stuff in the store.