Tab to remove illegal residents would approach $100 billion

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#1 Tab to remove illegal residents would approach $100 billion

Post by frigidmagi »

CNN
It would cost at least $94 billion to find, detain and remove all 12 million people believed to be staying illegally in the United States, the federal government estimated Wednesday.
art.immigrants.ap.jpg

Day laborers, who identified themselves as illegal immigrants, talk to a potential employer in Dallas, Texas.

Julie Myers, the head of Immigration and Customs Enforcement, gave the figure during a hearing before a Senate committee Wednesday.

She acknowledged it was based on "very rough calculations."

An ICE spokesman later said the $94 billion did not include the cost of finding illegal immigrants, nor court costs -- dollar amounts that are largely unknowable.

He said the amount was calculated by multiplying the estimated 12 million people by the average cost of detaining people for a day: $97. That was multiplied by the average length of detention: 32 days.

ICE officials also considered transportation costs, which average $1,000 per person.
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But that amount can vary widely, the spokesman said. Some deportees are simply driven by bus across the border, while others must take charter planes to distant countries, he said.

Finally, the department looked at personnel costs, bringing the total to roughly $94 billion.

The statistic is likely to become one more piece of fodder in the heated debate between the Bush administration -- which has fought for a "path to citizenship" for people who have lived peaceably in the United States -- and those who want to see more aggressive enforcement of immigration laws, up to, and including, the deportation of all illegal immigrants.

By way of comparison, the Department of Homeland Security's annual budget is about $35 billion.
Consider a few things.

The 12 million illegal estimate is actually one of the lower ones, the mid line is closer to 20 million.

The cost quoted in the articles doesn't cover the cost of actually finding and catching the illegals.

Cost of legal battles both in court cases with the illegal (who amazingly enough many can't speak English but they've learned how to sue pretty damn quick) and with the various sanctuaries cities and pro-illegal movements.

Cost of keeping them out, unless you know you want just keep grabbing them and throwing them back like it's a game (you know... what we do now.)

So you can expect the price, just like any federal program to go up and up and up.
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#2

Post by SirNitram »

Note: This does not include the amount of work removed from the economy by these people no longer doing the slave-wage bullshit they do to try and feed themselves and families. That also has a monetary value, though god alone knows how much.
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#3

Post by B4UTRUST »

Out of curiosity, why are we going to waste the money on the trial to begin with?

Do you have a green card? Let me see it. No court needed. You're either a legal citizen or on a Visa or not. If not, you're kicked out. Hell, personally I say just shoot them and get it over with, but that wouldn't be very nice, kind, morally right, etc. But if it's a problem that people want dealt with, be prepared to take more drastic actions then a warning, slap on the wrist and a bus ticket home.

As said, unless we preform a more permanent action they'll just keep coming back, even after spending the 94billion.
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#4

Post by SirNitram »

B4UTRUST wrote:Out of curiosity, why are we going to waste the money on the trial to begin with?
A thing called the Constitution. You might remember it. I believe you had to swear to uphold it.
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#5

Post by B4UTRUST »

Yes, I swore to protect and defend it against all enemies both foreign domestic.

However, the fact that the operative word of the term illegal alien is ILLEGAL means they are not covered by it. They're not citizens, natural born or otherwise. They are here illegally. So if the constitution protects the rights of American citizens, where does that place them? I realize that the 14th amendment places their anchor babies as US citizens since they were born in the states but as far as I'm aware that does not however cover the illegals themselves.

So I'll come right out and say it bluntly; if somehow the US constitution grants illegal aliens rights as us citizens then there is a problem that should be recitified. I do not believe they should be covered under it, nor do I agree with them being here in the first place. I don't agree with having the fucking president of Mexico bitch to the US that we're talking about deporting his citizens who are here illegally. The operative word here is illegal. I have no sympathy for them or desire to help them.
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#6

Post by SirNitram »

B4UTRUST wrote:Yes, I swore to protect and defend it against all enemies both foreign domestic.

However, the fact that the operative word of the term illegal alien is ILLEGAL means they are not covered by it. They're not citizens, natural born or otherwise. They are here illegally. So if the constitution protects the rights of American citizens, where does that place them? I realize that the 14th amendment places their anchor babies as US citizens since they were born in the states but as far as I'm aware that does not however cover the illegals themselves.

So I'll come right out and say it bluntly; if somehow the US constitution grants illegal aliens rights as us citizens then there is a problem that should be recitified. I do not believe they should be covered under it, nor do I agree with them being here in the first place. I don't agree with having the fucking president of Mexico bitch to the US that we're talking about deporting his citizens who are here illegally. The operative word here is illegal. I have no sympathy for them or desire to help them.
I'm referring to the 4th Amendment. I must ask if you're aware of the inherent, massive hypocrisy of complaining these people are breaking a law, yet not wanting to respect the law regarding what to do with them.

The Constitution doesn't grant the right to trial to only US Citizens. And it's a damn good thing, too, unless you want a perpetual underclass creating unrest like France. No one is asking for you to help them. Only to show some basic consistancy: If your problem with them is that they're here illegally, you might as well respect the law about how they can be removed.

Of course, you could realize that your first post was flat out moronic; carry your green card everywhere? Oh, right. So if it's stolen, I can be thrown out at any time, because of a fucking pickpocket? No chance to point out I am a legal resident? Riiiight. Great system there.
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#7

Post by B4UTRUST »

SirNitram wrote: I'm referring to the 4th Amendment. I must ask if you're aware of the inherent, massive hypocrisy of complaining these people are breaking a law, yet not wanting to respect the law regarding what to do with them.

The Constitution doesn't grant the right to trial to only US Citizens. And it's a damn good thing, too, unless you want a perpetual underclass creating unrest like France. No one is asking for you to help them. Only to show some basic consistancy: If your problem with them is that they're here illegally, you might as well respect the law about how they can be removed.

Of course, you could realize that your first post was flat out moronic; carry your green card everywhere? Oh, right. So if it's stolen, I can be thrown out at any time, because of a fucking pickpocket? No chance to point out I am a legal resident? Riiiight. Great system there.
Nowhere in my first post did I say it was required to carry a green card everywhere. The question was, do you have one? If so, let me see it. It's a simple thing. Produce for record in a reasonable time a green card, or similar document(work visa, student visa, etc) granting you legal stay within the boarder. Same way we handle people who can't remember their own damned drivers liscences. They show up with it at the court house within 48 hours(depending on state law of course) and the ticket/charge is dropped. Not too damned difficult a thing if you ask me. Show some proof or be forced to leave. As for the whole stolen, mugged, pickpocket them, I'm fairly certain there is some sort of database that oh, I don't know, has a list of names of people who have green cards? Might be helpful a bit, maybe.

Of course if memory serves there is at least one country in South America that does require you to carry certain forms of identification on you at all times or face either deportation or immediate drafting into the country's military forces. I'll have to remember which one it was, but we got warnings about it on one of our trips down south that whatever we do don't lose our IDs. But that's neither here nor there...

Secondly, you may wish to reread the constitution because nowhere in the 4th amendment does it grant ANYONE ANYWHERE a right to a fair trial. It protects against unreasonable search and seizure, not fair trials. I think you're thinking of the 6th amendement there. That's the one that covers the right to a fair trial. But it still does not apply to illegal immigrants in this case, I'll try to explain why.

It says 'In all criminal prosecutions, the accused shall enjoy the right to a speedy and public trial, by an impartial jury of the State and district wherein the crime shall have been committed, which district shall have been previously ascertained by law, and to be informed of the nature and cause of the accusation; to be confronted with the witnesses against him; to have compulsory process for obtaining witnesses in his favor, and to have the Assistance of Counsel for his defense.'

There is a small catch there, however. Immigration proceedings are matters of administrative law, not criminal law. (As a result, the consequence of violating your immigration status is not jail but deportation.) And Congress has nearly full authority to regulate immigration without interference from the courts. Because immigration is considered a matter of national security and foreign policy, the Supreme Court has long held that immigration law is largely immune from judicial review. Congress can make rules for immigrants that would be unacceptable if applied to citizens.

So the catch really is that they're not being accused of any federal or state crime in which they can be given a swift, expediant trial by a impartial jury of their peers. There are no deportation 'trials' to speak of. They get a hearing before an immigration judge, the right to legal representation(though not one paid for by the government, so no appointed counsel if they can't afford it) and the right to a translator for non-english speakers. All the government has to do in this case is provide 'clear and convincing' evidence to deport the individual, which is a far cry from 'beyond a reasonable doubt'.

So a no go for the 6th amendement rights for the illegal alien under a matter of deportation. However if they want to murder someone, deal in narcotics, shoplift, etc, then they are, of course, granted the privledges granted under the Bill of Rights.
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#8

Post by SirNitram »

So you basically want to uproot all the basic legal protections(Still legal protections, so still a basic contradiction with your anger over them being illegal; it's nice to know you couldn't simply answer that), and to hell with the consequences?

To hell with reality, as well, as you seem to have forgotten that green card renewals can take more than two years, and the temporary has only been extended to 18 months..
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#9

Post by B4UTRUST »

A bit misplaced in your own anger there, Nit. I just quoted you the laws of the land. If you've got issue with how they handle it, deal with them.

And yes, I still hold that if they are here against any law(ie illegally) they should not be granted the customary rights and privledges that come with having legal status within this country's borders.

And where did you even ask of my anger over them? Every question you asked of me I answered. Do you want me to say that I'm angry over bleeding heart bullshit that this whole issue has produced? I am. Do you want me to say that I don't believe the constitution/bill of rights do apply to them or should? I don't believe that they do. Do you want me to say that dispite the fact that I swore a military oath to protect and defend this country and those documents, that I disagree with their protecting illegals? I do disagree with them over that. Do you want me to say that I believe that the final, ultimate solution to the issue is one of simply creating a very harsh punishment for their illegally entering our lands? I'll say it. I dislike the fact that my tax dollars go to arresting illegal aliens, spending money to deport them only to have them back in country a week later and having to spend more money to do it all over again thanks to the IRRIRA of 1996? I dislike the fact that people don't wish to grasp the fact that the word illegal means they've broken a law, whether they agree or disagree with the law.

Anything else you wish me to say?


Edit:
And for the record, as someone msged me to point this out, I am not suggesting Die Endlösung der Mexikanischefrage.
Last edited by B4UTRUST on Thu Sep 13, 2007 6:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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#10

Post by SirNitram »

Amusing how you attribute everything to anger; a suggestion, stop trying to play armchair psychologist. You're no good at it. I find your self-contradiction as amusing as all the rest of the hypocrits who spout it. I don't give a fuck what you say, merely that you admit to yourself that you don't want to afford them the protection of the rules set up about immigration, just the rules that keep them out, a self-serving, hypocritical position that so defines the current movement.

You can cease the pathos, now.
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#11

Post by B4UTRUST »

Sure, if they OBEY the fucking rules, I'll be happy to protect them. You know, apply for immigration, the whole waiting and green cards and naturalization thing... I fail to see why I, or anyone, should afford them the protection of the law that they broke upon entering the country illegaly. It seems kind of contradictory to me that they should be protected by the laws the willingly and knowingly broke. But I'm sure you can justify that as blind anger or hatred too. *shrugs* I openly admit that I don't like that they come here in droves in what amounts to a near full scale invasion of the country and that I don't believe they should be legally entitled to anything. That's not a contradiction. There is no contradiction except the one you percieve in your mind.

I'll say it clearer, maybe that will solve your confusion.

I don't think they should have any legal rights under US law. What rights they are currently entitled to, mostly through loopholes in the wording of a document written long before this was ever even thought of as a potentital to be a problem, should be removed. I firmly believe that the legalities in place right now are not sufficent enough to deal with the issue of the illegal immigrants and that more stringent, harsher punishments need to be put into effect to rectify the situation.

There is no contradiction there. Nor is there a hipocracy.
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#12

Post by SirNitram »

You seem to be a little confused on the nature of the beast. The problems were lighter in the 90s not for some mystic lack of people wanting to come here, or people coming here illegally.. It was because illegal immigration actually got punished. And I don't mean punishing the symptoms, the people coming across. You want to stop an infection, you fight the source, the people who make it possible.

To wit: The assholes leading people across it to sell them to the highest fucking bidder. It's no exaggeration to describe their actions as such, or to call them coyotes.

To wit: The companies that use this and make it so fucking profitable for the first group.

Enforcement dropped like a stone when we got idiots talking about border fences and the like. Perhaps it's time to stop crowing about 'getting tough' and actually using the tools to treat the causes. You can deport a million, but a million and one will be there the next day, because of basic economics.
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#13

Post by B4UTRUST »

And yet for $.93 you can solve the whole problem, one person at a time...
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#14

Post by B4UTRUST »

And no, I don't think border fences will do shit. Hell, the ones we have don't do shit now. Again, I say we need harsher, stricter punishments for offenders. I've said that from the first post...
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#15

Post by SirNitram »

B4UTRUST wrote:And no, I don't think border fences will do shit. Hell, the ones we have don't do shit now. Again, I say we need harsher, stricter punishments for offenders. I've said that from the first post...
But you seem to think those punishments should go to the illegals. That just ensures you get different ones coming across, and there's no shortage. You hit the nasty shit on the people who make it profitable to transport humans across the border, and you hit the people doing the transporting.
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#16

Post by B4UTRUST »

Yes, because I also realize in America corporations don't get punished, which are a good percentage of the people who hire the cheap immigrant labor. So it does no good that way either.
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#17

Post by SirNitram »

Fiscal Year Worksite Arrests Notices of Intent to Fine
1993 7,630 1,302
1994 7,554 1,063
1995 10,014 1,056
1996 14,164 1,019
1997 17,554 865
1998 13,914 1,023
1999 2,849 417
2000 953 178
2001 735 100
2002 485 53
2003 445 162
2004 159 3
The fall is somewhat dramatic.
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