Want to attend University of Delaware?

[Dark Silver]

Then you have to think as we do

[quote]FIRE Press Release
NEWARK, Del., October 30, 2007—The University of Delaware subjects students in its residence halls to a shocking program of ideological reeducation that is referred to in the university’s own materials as a “treatmentâ€

[Charon]

Actually DS, according to them it's not even all white people that are racists. It's white people from the United States of America that are racist.

Question, has this been picked up on by any other news syndicate? This seems almost too insane to believe.

And on another note. People wonder why I hate lots of post-modernist ideology, it's because they do shit like this.

[SirNitram]

I'm sorry, I'm rolling to disbelieve. I read a wide enough variety that I really should have heard something about something so ridiculous. Christ, I got wind of the arrival of the head of the BNP speaking at MSU, and I heard nothing of this.

If it is true?

Smite. Smite like the fist of an angry fucking god.

[frigidmagi]

This is as intrusive as alot of Religious Right programs and frankly I am appalled. A persons sexuality is private business and it is not the fucking business of any organization, not to mention a semi-government one like a state university! No has the right to question me about my sexuality, my religious beliefs or my political orientation. Nor does a university funded by my damn tax dollars have the fucking right to dictate a

Their definition of racist (it may shock you to know that citizens of other nations are fully capable of racism, it may also shock you to know that other racial groups are capable of racism, blacks, asians and hispainics are not magically immune) is a modern example of New Speak bullshit. The behavior of their RA's proves that the tradition of party commissar has infiltrated the US despite the best efforts of all sane people in the western hemisphere.

The DU officals should be forced to dismantle this program brick by poisoned ideological brick, they should be removed from office and replaced by people who have actually read the Constitution (so no DoJ ex-heads from the last 8 years).

[Comrade Tortoise]

I will be honest, some beliefs simply are not private. I am fine with brain washing people into thinking about sustainability for example, because their choices in that regard affect you, me, your children(as I will not have any) etc. Many aspects of the sustainability discussions simply are not private moral beliefs, they are empirical ones, and I am fine failing someone for not believing in empirical reality.


Same with homophobia. I have been the victim of too much anti-gay harassment and outright assault to have a problem with at least asking people uncomfortable questions about their own sexuality inside a certain context. I am fine forcing people to at least be exposed to information. At least then if they want to be a douchebag, they are not an ignorant douchebag. The saying all white people are racists bit though is ridiculous though... flat out ridiculous, and ironic given that it in itself is a racist statement.

The method is the problem. Forcing someone to profess a belief is different from forcing them to engage in intellectual combat in order to defend their belief. Which I think is a much better option, and probably more effective at acheiving the goals one wants.

[Comrade Tortoise]

This is as intrusive as alot of Religious Right programs and frankly I am appalled. A persons sexuality is private business and it is not the fucking business of any organization, not to mention a semi-government one like a state university! No has the right to question me about my sexuality, my religious beliefs or my political orientation. Nor does a university funded by my damn tax dollars have the fucking right to dictate a

Their definition of racist (it may shock you to know that citizens of other nations are fully capable of racism, it may also shock you to know that other racial groups are capable of racism, blacks, asians and hispainics are not magically immune) is a modern example of New Speak bullshit. The behavior of their RA's proves that the tradition of party commissar has infiltrated the US despite the best efforts of all sane people in the western hemisphere.

The DU officals should be forced to dismantle this program brick by poisoned ideological brick, they should be removed from office and replaced by people who have actually read the Constitution (so no DoJ ex-heads from the last 8 years).

I would certainly agree that they should dismantle this program. As it does violate... gods, everything in the constitution.

A mandatory class that forces debate on social issues? I would be perfectly fine with

[frigidmagi]

Delaware Resident Hall

I decided to go poke about and see if there was any confirmation or evidence of this... Wellllll...

"The Office of Residence Life, within its offices and its residence halls, will become a place where diversity among people is recognized, valued and demonstrated. Racism, sexism, heterosexism, ageism, ableism and other behaviors and systems that empower some while oppressing others will not be tolerated. Programs, policies, and procedures will reflect the importance and acceptance of diversity. Actions that encourage and promote diversity will be valued and rewarded."

I hear warning bells do you hear warning bells?

Also CT, while I believe students should not be allowed to harass, bully or otherwise molest and most especially assault other students. I completely disagree with you on the idea that a college has the right to preach a lifestyle and frankly I find your stance self serving and hypocritical since what you want pushed are your pet beliefs and projects. This would be akin to me demanding mandatory membership in a ROTC program or an oath of loyalty to the US Constitution from every student. It is not for a college to demand a lifestyle just to pass, students should met just two requirements don't break the law/abuse fellow students and pass your classes.

[Steve]

What the frag is "ableism"?

[SirNitram]

What the frag is "ableism"?

I'm trying to puzzle it out. The only place I've run into it is in the various disability-centric communities I've drifted through. There's certainly legitimate times to discriminate on it(You don't want, for example, a deaf man whose not good at lip-reading doing work where he talks to people), and also a number of times it's BS.

But Ableism is something you generally only find in those fringe whackos who think having a disability makes you better than everyone else.

[Steve]

There's a difference between forcing ideas and beliefs on others, and permitting free and open discussion so that, in Locke-ian fashion, Truth and Error can contest each other in public. And by free and open discussion, I mean taking the idiots who try to spew insults in place of arguments out back and giving them a beating while the intelligent people discuss things properly.

[frigidmagi]

It is not a free and open discussion if you force people to be there though.

[Steve]

That goes without saying, frig.

[Batman]

Especially not if you punish people for not coming up with the conclusion you want.

And I'm sorry CT but yes beliefs ARE private. It's the moment you ACT on those beliefs in a way that affects other people they stop being private, but until then your beliefs are yours and yours alone.

[Comrade Tortoise]

Also CT, while I believe students should not be allowed to harass, bully or otherwise molest and most especially assault other students. I completely disagree with you on the idea that a college has the right to preach a lifestyle and frankly I find your stance self serving and hypocritical since what you want pushed are your pet beliefs and projects. This would be akin to me demanding mandatory membership in a ROTC program or an oath of loyalty to the US Constitution from every student. It is not for a college to demand a lifestyle just to pass, students should met just two requirements don't break the law/abuse fellow students and pass your classes.

I am not saying the university should advocate a certain point of view. But all too often a person's beliefs go unchallenged for precisely the reasons you have laid out. We have such a hands off approach to other people's beliefs, even if they are demonstrably wrong that we never actually force someone to think critically about them. To the point that in AZ a couple years ago, there was legislation seriously considered that would allow students to opt out of course material they found objectionable IE. they disagreed with.

I would love a mandatory class that, while it does not indoctrinate, forces students to defend their points of view. Forces them to think critically. Assignments in such a course would include in-class debates, in-class deliberation of policy questions, with a lecture curriculum emphasizing critical thinking teaching people how to recognize bias in their thinking that affects their beliefs. Once they know about it, they can decide for themselves whether they want to keep it. As I said, they may continue to be a bigoted douche if they wish, but it wont be because they were ignorant and never thought about it. Most people don't even know they have bias. Speaking of which

heterosexism

It is telling Magi, that you list this as one of the ones that causes "warning bells" IE You think that it is a bullshit category of prejudice. You even asked me over AIM how Heterosexism oppresses people by existing.

Here is how

You walk down the street, people assume you are straight. For you, that is all well and good. Yay for you. But it irritates the hell out of me when people assume I am straight. I have been through too much to not be irritated by it. When discussion of relationships crops up in casual conversation, people assume you are straight and treat you accordingly. All well and good for you. Not so for me, I have to explain to people that I like men, deal with the awkwardness, etc. That is just the tip of the iceberg.

Have you ever heard the sentence "You are not straight, just confused?" Did you know that it is illegal to mention homosexuality in sex ed class in most states? Have you ever noticed that all advertisements are explicitly geared toward straight people? Have you ever heard someone say "that is so gay" or call someone a fagot? Most of the time, people say words like that without ever even thinking that the gay person nearby might be hurt by what they say. Hell, they say it without even considering the fact that a gay person may be in the fucking room. Hell, jack uses phrases like that when I am in the room, and he is one of my closest friends. I normally keep my trap shut because I know it wont change anything it is that ingrained into his speech patterns and vocabulary. I could go on about this for hours. The fact is though, I should not HAVE to deal with this on a daily basis. I should not HAVE to hold my tongue. And every day I am made to feel separate from everyone else, I am made to feel less than everyone else.

That is why heterosexism oppresses by existing.

And I'm sorry CT but yes beliefs ARE private. It's the moment you ACT on those beliefs in a way that affects other people they stop being private, but until then your beliefs are yours and yours alone.

There are a good number of beliefs that you cannot avoid acting on if you hold them. Take hating gay people for example. I am on a roll, why not go with it right? Homophobes ALWAYS act on their belief that gay people are evil/inferior/mentally disabled/pedophiles in some way. Whether it be going gay-bashing, or calling their son a fagot when he gets hurt on the playground and starts crying. They always abuse others, and even if it is low-grade homophobia, such as the fear of being though of as gay, it will affect the relationships they develop with other individuals and cause social problems.

How about sustainability? A person who does not think about the environment will make choices as a result of those beliefs that hurt you. Sorry, simple truth. Additionally, because I believe humans are not the only things that count morally, they make choices that damage ecosystems that I also think we have moral obligations toward. But that is something I would rather not get into here, and would need a massive argument over the intrinsic value of nature.

I can keep going. But no private belief, or perhaps very few, does not carry with it consequences for you, me, and nature. Because beliefs go into decision making, and decisions have consequences.

[SirNitram]

You walk down the street, people assume you are straight. For you, that is all well and good. Yay for you. But it irritates the hell out of me when people assume I am straight. I have been through too much to not be irritated by it. When discussion of relationships crops up in casual conversation, people assume you are straight and treat you accordingly. All well and good for you. Not so for me, I have to explain to people that I like men, deal with the awkwardness, etc. That is just the tip of the iceberg.

Gosh, what a terrible life. I could never understand that, what with people assuming I'm Neurotypical and thus being surprised when I exhibit symptoms of an existance which is best termed as 'Existing in some people's definition of Hell' at times.

Oh wait. THat's my life. It's been my life since well before puberty and sexual interest.

People will always assume others conform to the norm. It's because the norm is the norm. Move on. You're not oppressed by a guy thinking you'd bone a chick.

[frigidmagi]

So let me get this straight... Because people don't automatically assume you're gay the minute they see you. They don't automatically you're a member of a minority sexual orientation (which has no damn visual clues!) in which only 9% of the males of this country will engage in any close behavior to it in this country and only 3% claim any preference towards or identity(Cultural Anthropology An Applied Perspective 6th edition page 267) you're oppressed.

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Of course people are going to assume you're straight! That's the majority, you damn well know that unless they get a massive sensory clue in the first 10 seconds of seeing someone (like I don't know... skin color maybe!) they will assume that person is part of the majority. That's human nature, not oppression!


See refusing you the right to get married that's oppression. Not allowing you to serve in the military that's oppression. Beating, harassing, killing and so that is oppression.

Even if tomorrow all objections towards homosexual goes away magically, people are going to assume you're straight because they have no visual clues.

[Hotfoot]

Ben, people have assumed not only that I am gay in the past, but also that I am a woman.

Granted, the latter doesn't last past the point I open my mouth, but the former is something that some people have thought for months and some cases, years.

That someone assumes you're straight is not a big deal. Get over it. The bigotry associated with homophobia is entirely unrelated from the idea that, at first glance, there's nothing about you that is stereotypically gay. The biggest problem here is the awkwardness upon your revelation. Guess what, it's not likely to change that much even when homosexuality is more accepted, because girls will still want to try and guys will feel uncomfortable the same way a homosexual woman feels when they feel that men are expressing "interest" in them. It's mildly disconcerting when you realize that someone you are not at all interested in a sexual or romantic fashion might be interested in you, and that will persist until they are convinced that this is no longer the case.

Think back to any case where someone's shown interest in you and you have no intention of showing interest back. It. Is. Uncomfortable. Moreso because if you're straight the thought never even enters your mind.

That said, a higher level of acceptance of the orientation can only help matters, and that's a valid thing to strive for, but I think most people here are with you on the acceptance part, but you're not going to ever change the initial reaction of "you mean he might want to have sex with me? What?"

And frankly, let's face it, you might not think about it, but you probably engage in prejudice yourself every day without thinking. Everyone does, it's the nature of humanity. I yell at shitty drivers, without thinking about how they might just be having an off day. I roll my eyes at parents with misbehaving kids, not thinking that this could be the first time this kid has chosen to act up. The list goes on, as you can imagine.

The problem, of course, is much deeper than initial reactions, its that the whole thing is, get this, unknown. The more people realize that homosexuals are "normal" people, the more easily they will accept them. The crazy flamboyant stereotype really rather hurts this process. I look at some gay pride parades and wonder how effective the million man march would have been if there had been a float with some guys in gangsta clothes sitting on a couch on a porch with huge afros, a giant bucket of fried chicken and watermelons, slapping scantily clad women and throwing out packets of weed to the crowd.

Because nearly nude men dry humping each other in a cage dressed in outrageous colors is damn near the same thing. More sensible things will work eventually, but they have to get past the shock tactics the gay community has used in the past.

[The Silence and I]

@University of Delaware: Your policy is FUBAR. Reducing discrimination is a noble goal. Promoting lies--and obvious ones at that--in the process is both horrible and damaging to your goal. It is stupid to call all American whites racist, and apparently exempt some or all other races and nationalities. This is both a lie and an obvious lie. Not to belittle the violations of the constitution, those are obviously important too. FU---BAR.

@Side Discussion: I have no problem with a class which promotes critical discussion, forces students to recognize their biases, defend their beliefs. That is fine, provided the class has no overarching agenda. I might even be okay with this being mandatory--it's just discussion after all, not forced conformation to anything and we could use more critically aware people. The key value is the lack of required conformation to a set of ideas or beliefs.

As for "heterosexism"... I looked it up on wikipedia (shut up, it was easier) and this word apparently means a presumption that everyone is heterosexual, and/or that heterosexuals are superior to homosexuals.

Okay. The second half of the definition is clearly a form of discrimination, and should be discouraged. The first half is trickier. When you have a sample with no intrinsic external markers which comprises a mere 3% of the population, how can a member of the other 97% be expected not to assume any given individual is also, shall we say, "normal?"

If anyone in such a situation feels oppressed by another person's assumptions then I am simply sorry. Invest in some helmets and thicker skin, because it is unreasonable to expect anything else. The assumption you are not (insert non-obvious minority) does not oppress you in any meaningful fashion I can think of, and I doubt there is any fix for it anyway. We all oppress and deal with oppression to some extent, a little armor is basic equipment.

Besides, do any of us even know how many forms of hard to detect minority there are? If I must assume someone might be gay, must I also assume he might have Asperger's? What about PTSD? Depression? Alcoholism? Maybe a victim of childhood abuse? I don't have any idea how many assumptions I should or shouldn't be making, and how do I go about a conversation while trying to keep track of all these assumptions I am or am not trying to make? It gets ridiculous!

[Cynical Cat]

Ahh political correctness. I see you are still alive and kicking. Pity.

For you younger folks, this stuff was all over the place in the 90s the bane of campuses everywhere. Like all other kinds of enforced conformity to ideology, its ugly stuff. Its bad enough when it takes root in the class and student society level and even worse when it becomes policy of the administration.

[Rogue 9]

According to FIRE's latest press release, the university has bowed to pressure and ended the program. Looking for confirmation now, though I hasten to add that I doubt this is fake, given all the trouble they'd have had to go to in order to make up all the documentation displayed on their Web site, and it seems outlandish that they would do so given that the university would quickly sue if accused falsely of something this big.