D&D 4th Edition: reactions

[The Minx]

So, it's been a wee while, what are your first impressions?


Seeing as I have yet to purchase the Core books, I'm very interested in hearing what people have to say about this, the better to judge whether to buy them. Particularly since the much more restrictive SRD and OGL policies for 4th edition will prevent a www.d20srd.org type site from emerging.

Eh, who am I kidding, I'll probably buy them anyway.

[SirNitram]

Much needed simplification across the board. Everyone's useful again. Non-mage classes have more than 'Pick target, beat on' options.

[Cynical Cat]

Simplication good. More attacks and options for non spellcasters good. Low level casters actually casting good.

The continuation of the crazy D&D economy isn't good.

The game's overwhelming focus on combat abilities is annoying. There are no spells for long term mind control, no haggling rules and abilities, nadda.

The monsters have a lot of hitpoints. I understand this is so they'll last a few rounds with players beating on them, but it irks me that abilities that sound brutally lethal aren't.

Minions are nice to handle from a mechanics point of view, but boy do they beat on SoD.

In short, it plays too much like a dungeon crawl board game and not enough like living in a fantasy world.

[The Minx]

Ya, I had heard about Minions: I think I'll be giving them a pass if I ever run a game.

As for "healing surges"... sounds like everyone now has several uses of "self-only" CLW as an [Ex] ability... SoD issues?

[SirNitram]

Ya, I had heard about Minions: I think I'll be giving them a pass if I ever run a game.

You should try them out, at least. They actually are terrific fun once you take them for a spin.

[Cynical Cat]

Ya, I had heard about Minions: I think I'll be giving them a pass if I ever run a game.

You should try them out, at least. They actually are terrific fun once you take them for a spin.

The concept isn't bad: low hp scrubs that have the ability to actually hurt heroes and are easy to manage, but 1 hp 21st level monsters is hard on the SoD as is the player mega healing.

4th edition plays like a fun dungeon crawl boardgame, not like a living breathing fantasy world. I can supply some of the latter, but the game hinders rather than helps me with that.

[Comrade Tortoise]

Those are about the same problems I have with it as well. I am at the point where I am thinking about writing up rituals for half the spells I used to use, especially the defensive ones, mind control, etc.

The minions I dont like, I might use them as mooks in large scale combat, which I like using, where the arrow-storm hits and actually takes out a few hundred men... but I could have done that with a cut-scene....

[The Silence and I]

Not a fan of the new cross class mechanics.

I can live with most of the simplification, and most of the rest I like to varying degrees (example: perception checks >> spot/listen).

Fluff stuff is 'meh' for me as I never learned the older stuff in the first place.

Artwork is pretty good, and the books are layed out well enough.

I do not like the roles each class falls into, and I strongly dislike the rail-roading with respect to character advancement. DnD for dummies I believe I've called it. That's great for some people, it falls well outside my tastes.

[General Havoc]

If I might ask, what are the new Cross-class mechanics that you are so non-fond of?

[Cynical Cat]

If I might ask, what are the new Cross-class mechanics that you are so non-fond of?

I think he's referring to multiclassing, which works by spending feats to add or switch abilities from another class.

Tortoise, defensive rituals usable in combat will absolutely murder game balance. Utilities already have that covered (even if not as well as you might like).

[The Silence and I]

If I might ask, what are the new Cross-class mechanics that you are so non-fond of?

As Cynical Cat correctly noted, I do mean multiclassing. Err, feat-for-power swapping. Ish.

Basically, here's my problem with it: it has less affect on your character than in 3.5, and it is highly restricted by level. Think Heritage feats from 3.5, but a little different.

Let's say you are playing a <insert class> and wish to "multiclass" into Fighter. You burn a feat to pick up the shiney new "I'm part Fighter now!" package, which in this case combines a couple basic core Fighter abilities into one Encounter Power (you get to mark something and gain a bonus with your chosen weapon type--for one round rather than whenever and for however long, and only once per encounter. [Ben Stein]Wow.[/Ben Stein]). After that you get to wait several levels before you can start burning feats to get other Fighter powers--feats you could have spent getting the armor and/or weapon proficiencies multiclassing into Fighter oddly enough didn't give you.

The whole thing is made to ensure you can neither screw up too badly nor actually get anything terribly useful out of it. I'm sure a careful analysis might reveal some broken combination somewhere but that doesn't really address the overall problem as I see it.

[The Minx]

Apart from SirNitram, we seem to have mostly negative reviews.

So, anyone want to mention something they really liked about the new edition?

Glancing through the books (no I haven't bought them yet) I thought the stat blocks for monsters in the MM were a lot cleaner than they were before, which is nice, though the "fluff" monster descriptions were rather lacking IMHO. Both good and bad points there.

Glancing through the PH, the layout of putting all the class powers in seperate sections was also nice, and of course a refreshing change to see the non spell-casting classes getting a lot of stuff to use, though the effects of some of these powers were somewhat less than the hype seemed to indicate.

Thoughts there?

[Cynical Cat]

It's a very clearn, easy to play and run game.