Is the Borg Collective 'evil'?

[Robert Walper]

I take it then you consider ants evil, as they do the same thing on a relative scale?

It's their nature.

It's the Borg Collective's nature to assimilate. Even the Federation's personnel agree on this.

There's nothing natural about the borg. They are a creation, not an evolution.

Artificial does not equte evil, moron. There's nothing natural about a microwave either, but it isn't evil, is it?

Not true. Assimilation is a default action of Borg forces.

Proof. Last time I checked, the: "I've heard those same words from thousands of species across thousands of worlds, since long before you were created..." quote still rang true.

Wow...the Queen is knowledgeable on the races the Borg have assimilated. I suppose you think that because George W. Bush currently leads the United States and knows about past wars, he's responsible for all of them?

As to your proof:

ENT "Regeneration": Borg drones follow basic programming, assimilating individuals and a ship. No Queen present.

STVOY "Unity": Dead drones onboard a derelict cube are reactivated, falling back to their basic programming and trying to assimilate the Voyager away team. No Queen present.

STVOY "Drone": Borg nanoprobes fused with the holo docter's mobile emitter and assimilate it. No Queen involved.

Many other examples I could quote, but I won't bother. I trust my point is clear.

The only time the Borg have killed is in response to others trying to attack them first. Otherwise they prefer to either ignore others or incorperate others into their Collective, giving them all available benefits.

There is no benefit to being a Borg Drone, Walper.

Only an idiot could assert that. There are plenty of benefits. It's just a matter of what the subjective cost to benefit ratio is. For most people like you and me, the cost is too high. This doesn't mean things like enhanced strength, personal shielding, extented lifespan, hive mind existence, cooperation, elimination of crime, hunger, etc are not benefits.

A lot of things ants do is sickening to many people, while I subscribe it's just nature. So you assert they are evil?

The Borg are controlled by a single cyborg woman with megalomania. There is nothing natural about that, and there is nothing natural about a race of cyborgs, as, need I remind you, cyborg parts need to be created, and are too complex for such things as ants to develop.

Being ruled by a single leader (although the Queen is slightly more complex than that) is nothing new or evil. I already addressed the fact artificial does not equate evil. Moving on.

Humor me. Define what evil is.

Anything that knowingly, and willfully, harms life without a greater purpose.

Pretty stupid definition, Dakarne, since a greater purpose is entirely subjective. Hitler himself used that bloodly justification!

And besides, the Borg have stated their greater purpose with great clarity: To improve themselves, raise the quality of life for all assimilated species, and attempt to attain perfection.

A scientist using animal blood to develop a cure for a disease: not evil.

Species tend to disgree that their life is expendable for the greater good of another species. This is called selfish nature, something every living creature has.

The borg collective assimilating and enslaving millions of unwilling lives, only to further their own goal of conquest: evil.

The Borg aren't interested in political conquest or wealth. This was established in the first episode that they appeared in, and hasn't changed. Their goal is to attain perfection, improve themselves and the lives of assimilated species.

[Narsil]

It's the Borg Collective's nature to assimilate. Even the Federation's personnel agree on this.

And they're always right about everything... aren't they.

Artificial does not equte evil, moron. There's nothing natural about a microwave either, but it isn't evil, is it?

The Borg are computerised.

There can be no active decision making that isn't preprogrammed into a computer as large as the Borg. A series of preprogrammed ones and zeros which is used to destroy, conquer, and cause suffering.

ENT "Regeneration": Borg drones follow basic programming, assimilating individuals and a ship. No Queen present.

Your arguement is flawed on every level.

Borg drone basic programming had to have been programmed by someone. And they'll have known exactly what it was going to do, especially with such sophisitcation and technological level.

STVOY "Unity": Dead drones onboard a derelict cube are reactivated, falling back to their basic programming and trying to assimilate the Voyager away team. No Queen present.

It's a collective. And see above.

STVOY "Drone": Borg nanoprobes fused with the holo docter's mobile emitter and assimilate it. No Queen involved.

See above.

*snip idiotic benefits*

The penalties eliminate 'benefits'.

Why have 'benefits', when there's no way to enjoy them. If there's no way to enjoy benefits, they aren't benefits. They're merely more ways that you're being used or tortured.

Being ruled by a single leader (although the Queen is slightly more complex than that) is nothing new or evil. I already addressed the fact artificial does not equate evil. Moving on.

What has that got to do with the price of fish?

And a megalomaniacal dictator with complete enslavement of millions of lifeforms IS evil.

Pretty stupid definition, Dakarne, since a greater purpose is entirely subjective. Hitler himself used that bloodly justification!

Read below:

And besides, the Borg have stated their greater purpose with great clarity: To improve themselves, raise the quality of life for all assimilated species, and attempt to attain perfection.

To become the 'Master Race'? Looks like a hitler analogy fits quite well.

Species tend to disgree that their life is expendable for the greater good of another species. This is called selfish nature, something every living creature has.

The borg don't need to assimilate to survive. Your point is moot.

The Borg aren't interested in political conquest or wealth. This was established in the first episode that they appeared in, and hasn't changed. Their goal is to attain perfection, improve themselves and the lives of assimilated species.

And that makes it not evil to enslave millions of beings?

And here I thought that you were merely delusional...

You're a fucking psychotic retard.

[Robert Walper]

It's the Borg Collective's nature to assimilate. Even the Federation's personnel agree on this.

And they're always right about everything... aren't they.

Translation: "I can't refute you're point, so I'll just point out Federation personnel aren't infalliable."

Concession #1 accepted.

Artificial does not equte evil, moron. There's nothing natural about a microwave either, but it isn't evil, is it?

The Borg are computerised.

"Computerised isn't natural, so it's evil!". I addressed the point that artificial does not equate evil.

Concession #2 accepted.

ENT "Regeneration": Borg drones follow basic programming, assimilating individuals and a ship. No Queen present.

Your arguement is flawed on every level.

Borg drone basic programming had to have been programmed by someone. And they'll have known exactly what it was going to do, especially with such sophisitcation and technological level.

You're obviously not very familiar with programming. It can easily be made to alter itself, grow and expand far beyond the intial creator's intentions or expectations.

STVOY "Unity": Dead drones onboard a derelict cube are reactivated, falling back to their basic programming and trying to assimilate the Voyager away team. No Queen present.

It's a collective. And see above.

No Queen ordered or oversaw their asimilation attempts.

Concession #3 accepted.

STVOY "Drone": Borg nanoprobes fused with the holo docter's mobile emitter and assimilate it. No Queen involved.

See above.

No Queen ordered or oversaw their assimilation activity.

See above accepted concession.

*snip idiotic benefits*

The penalties eliminate 'benefits'.

Translation: "The cost outweighs the benefits." Jeez...isn't that what I fucking said? I simply pointed out there are benefits. Your whining about the costs of such benefits does not magically make them disappear.

Being ruled by a single leader (although the Queen is slightly more complex than that) is nothing new or evil. I already addressed the fact artificial does not equate evil. Moving on.

What has that got to do with the price of fish?

I take it your brain is overheating trying to compete with mine, hence your stupid line there.

And besides, the Borg have stated their greater purpose with great clarity: To improve themselves, raise the quality of life for all assimilated species, and attempt to attain perfection.

To become the 'Master Race'?

In the context of conventional power and influence in the Trek galaxy, the Borg are the most powerful civilization.

Looks like a hitler analogy fits quite well.

Hilter desired conquest and extermination of certain people. The Borg pursue neither.

Species tend to disgree that their life is expendable for the greater good of another species. This is called selfish nature, something every living creature has.

The borg don't need to assimilate to survive. Your point is moot.

No, the Borg don't need to assimilate to survive. They assimilate to grow and expand their knowledge, resources and attain specific goals. None of which qualify as evil goals.

The Borg aren't interested in political conquest or wealth. This was established in the first episode that they appeared in, and hasn't changed. Their goal is to attain perfection, improve themselves and the lives of assimilated species.

And that makes it not evil to enslave millions of beings?

I have to work to survive, even though I don't want to. I have to obey laws and rules I did not make and many of which I do not agree with with.

So I'm a slave?

[Narsil]

Translation: "I can't refute you're point, so I'll just point out Federation personnel aren't infalliable."

I also pointed out that Federation personnel are VERY fallible...

To the point of being pretty much a bunch of incompetent twits.

"Computerised isn't natural, so it's evil!". I addressed the point that artificial does not equate evil.

Strawman, I never said that.

A computerised being has to be TOLD and PROGRAMMED to be the way it is.

If not evil, then they are a device thereof.

You're obviously not very familiar with programming. It can easily be made to alter itself, grow and expand far beyond the intial creator's intentions or expectations.

You're obviously not a programmer.

Otherwise you'd know that what you just said is a load of complete and utter bullshit. And if I am to take that correctly, the borg MADE themselves evil, eh?

No Queen ordered or oversaw their asimilation attempts.

They are a collective, long-range communication is quite possible for the borg. And preprogrammed strategies does make kind of an evil in itself, it's kind of like a safety switch so that, even while seperated, they are programmed to do as much damage as possible.

You are obviously not a programmer, and don't know anything close to jack shit about what you're talking about, basically

Translation: "The cost outweighs the benefits." Jeez...isn't that what I fucking said? I simply pointed out there are benefits. Your whining about the costs of such benefits does not magically make them disappear.

The benefits are rendered into more penalties because of the specific nature of the penalties, you twit.

I take it your brain is overheating trying to compete with mine, hence your stupid line there.

No, I was merely asking what "ruled by a single leader" had to do with what you quoted.

In the context of conventional power and influence in the Trek galaxy, the Borg are the most powerful civilization.

Bullshit.

They may have technological prowess. But they are too incompetent for their power to count.

Hilter desired conquest and extermination of certain people. The Borg pursue neither.

Tell me where 'conquest' and 'forced improvement' don't appear in the Borg's repetoire. Actions speak louder than words, I might add.

No, the Borg don't need to assimilate to survive. They assimilate to grow and expand their knowledge, resources and attain specific goals. None of which qualify as evil goals.

Ends justify the means, I take it?

And since survival doesn't figure into it... I'd just say that you're wanking a lost cause.

I have to work to survive, even though I don't want to. I have to obey laws and rules I did not make and many of which I do not agree with with.

You have freedom of thought.

The borg don't.

[Batman]

I have to work to survive, even though I don't want to. I have to obey laws and rules I did not make and many of which I do not agree with with.
So I'm a slave?

You do NOT have to work. You're free to go live under a bridge somewhere.
Plus, you're working for yourself. This may also benefit someone else somehow , but the primary benefits are yours personally, and are yours to keep.
You're free to move elsewhere where those laws don't apply, and you can attempt to change those laws by, gee, voting for people who want to modify them to your liking.
Please, Robert. That's just pathetic.

[Robert Walper]

I have to work to survive, even though I don't want to. I have to obey laws and rules I did not make and many of which I do not agree with with.
So I'm a slave?

You do NOT have to work. You're free to go live under a bridge somewhere.
Plus, you're working for yourself. This may also benefit someone else somehow , but the primary benefits are yours personally, and are yours to keep.
You're free to move elsewhere where those laws don't apply, and you can attempt to change those laws by, gee, voting for people who want to modify them to your liking.
Please, Robert. That's just pathetic.

Let me clarify, Batman. Lacking choice is not evil, anymore than ants lacking choice is. The Borg strip their drones of individuality and the ability to make choices, but they do so in an amoral way.

[Narsil]

Let me clarify, Batman. Lacking choice is not evil, anymore than ants lacking choice is. The Borg strip their drones of individuality and the ability to make choices, but they do so in an amoral way.

Walper, you know that you're just building yourself into the biggest hole imaginable...

The Borg are evil, by action rather than intent. But evil nontheless.

Tell me, do you have no capability to comprehend the difference between your situation and a Borg Drone's situation?

You wouldn't be arguing this if you were a drone. You wouldn't have had this entire idea, if you were a drone. You wouldn't think, if you were a drone.

What you would be doing, is assimilating and conquering millions upon millions of innocent people. That's the closest you'll have ever come to social interaction.

[Robert Walper]

Let me clarify, Batman. Lacking choice is not evil, anymore than ants lacking choice is. The Borg strip their drones of individuality and the ability to make choices, but they do so in an amoral way.

Walper, you know that you're just building yourself into the biggest hole imaginable...

The Borg are evil, by action rather than intent. But evil nontheless.

Then ants would be evil by actions of killing, harvesting other insects and carnage on a massive scale (relatively). However, they are not evil by any definition I subscribe to. Nor are the Borg.

There's no disputing their actions are unpleasant from our perspective and choice of life. However, that does not make them evil. That just makes them something to be avoided. Like rabid dogs. Dangerous and unpleasant, but not evil.

[Narsil]

Blah, blah, blah, fap, fap, fap.

Robert... a bunch of helpful words:


The. Borg. Are. Programmed. And. Created. That. Way.

Ants. Evolved. That. Way.

[Batman]

Let me clarify, Batman. Lacking choice is not evil,

No. Denying choice, however, is.

anymore than ants lacking choice is.

Ants LACK choice. The Collective TAKES IT AWAY.

The Borg strip their drones of individuality and the ability to make choices, but they do so in an amoral way.

So they were enslaved in an amoral way. That changes what exactly?
Plus, the Collective if not singular Drones DOES have a choice. They CHOSE to cooperate with Voyager rather than assimilate her when fighting against the Biowank Aliens.

[Robert Walper]

Blah, blah, blah, fap, fap, fap.

Robert... a bunch of helpful words:

The. Borg. Are. Programmed. And. Created. That. Way.

Too bad you don't have any evidence to back up your assertions.

Ants. Evolved. That. Way.

Thank you captain obvious.

[Narsil]

Too bad you don't have any evidence to back up your assertions.

I have now come to the ultimate conclusion that you are a complete and utter twit who knows absolutely nothing, and challenges a PROGRAMMER on issues of COMPUTERS, you fucking RETARD! COMPUTERS DID NOT EVOLVE YOU FUCKING RETARD!!!

Get it into your thick skull you arrogant prick!

[Robert Walper]

Let me clarify, Batman. Lacking choice is not evil,

No. Denying choice, however, is.

Why? Depriving a living being of it's life is not evil, but you expect me to agree denying choice is?

anymore than ants lacking choice is.

Ants LACK choice. The Collective TAKES IT AWAY.

So does our society. You're familiar with the fact our society regularily enforces conformity to rules and laws, punishing those who chose to break them. The BC simply takes this level of control to a higher level.

The Borg strip their drones of individuality and the ability to make choices, but they do so in an amoral way.

So they were enslaved in an amoral way. That changes what exactly?

I consider good and evil moral judgements. Amoral by definition is beyond those considerations.

Plus, the Collective if not singular Drones DOES have a choice. They CHOSE to cooperate with Voyager rather than assimilate her when fighting against the Biowank Aliens.

So now you're saying the Collective has choice? Wasn't the basis of your arguement? That lacking choice is what makes them evil?

[Narsil]

That lacking choice is what makes them evil?

The individual lacks choice, Walper, not the collective.

[Robert Walper]

Too bad you don't have any evidence to back up your assertions.

I have now come to the ultimate conclusion that you are a complete and utter twit who knows absolutely nothing, and challenges a PROGRAMMER on issues of COMPUTERS,

Actually, I'm a programmer to an extent as well. So I do know what I'm talking about.

you fucking RETARD! COMPUTERS DID NOT EVOLVE YOU FUCKING RETARD!!!

Actually, technically computers do evolve. They simply evolve at our hand.

However, you're simply too stupid to realize programming can in fact evolve (ie: evolve meaning 'change' for your puny mind), beyond the initial programmer's expectations and parameters so long as it's designed and allowed to do so.

Get it into your thick skull you arrogant prick!

If I'm coming across as arrogant, it's only because your continually stupid arguements are making this way too easy to feel superior.

[Robert Walper]

That lacking choice is what makes them evil?

The individual lacks choice, Walper, not the collective.

Not disputed. Still haven't seen a single thing that proves this is evil.

[Narsil]

Actually, I'm a programmer to an extent as well. So I do know what I'm talking about.

Okay... to what point are you a programmer? Are you a professionally trained specialist currently undergoing training to expand the knowledge, or are you just some idiot who can reprogram his games to do different things?

There's a massive difference, Walper.

Actually, technically computers do evolve. They simply evolve at our hand.

That is creation, our own personal 'intelligent design', which just happens to be observable, and not at all a crackpot theory.

However, you're simply too stupid to realize programming can in fact evolve (ie: evolve meaning 'change' for your puny mind), beyond the initial programmer's expectations and parameters so long as it's designed and allowed to do so.

You forget that there has to be parameters in place for this evolution to occur. It is a mathematical sequence, not a bloody lifeform.

If I'm coming across as arrogant, it's only because your continually stupid arguements are making this way too easy to feel superior.

Walper... you're a bloody simpleton and I accept this as a concession that you are just an arrogant borgwanking prick, basically.

[Narsil]

Not disputed. Still haven't seen a single thing that proves this is evil.

They are used as mindless puppets to enslave more people, who'll in turn enslave more people, and then enslave some more people, etc.

That isn't evil to you?

[Ace Pace]

Dakarne, you just made a massive mistake of assumming the borg are pre-programmed with canned responses and that such a thing is a requirment.

You're obviously not very familiar with programming. It can easily be made to alter itself, grow and expand far beyond the intial creator's intentions or expectations.

You're obviously not a programmer.

Otherwise you'd know that what you just said is a load of complete and utter bullshit. And if I am to take that correctly, the borg MADE themselves evil, eh?

You have completly made an idiot of yourself, we today have self developing designs that adapt and recreate themselves thanks to information.

Check the latest DARPA races, thats CARS that LEARN from their own driving to drive better, for themselves. Check massive paralel networks that compute things, they learn from other issues. Check intergrated circuit designing, that LEARNS by itself the most efficient code path.

There is prior code, but that code is built to evolve and improve itself.

And anyone who has to claim that He Is a Programmer is committing the stupidest fallacy on earth.

[Narsil]

I missed that one... bloody educative techniques at college suck...

Feck it all.

However, what you posted denotes an active decision making, which is kind of different to pure evolved instinct. Which I might say... kind of nullifies Walper's arguement.

Because if the borg are a bunch of sentient robots, then they are truly evil as they are performing evil actions knowingly. And the queen controls the lot of them regardless, whether she's personally there or not.

[Robert Walper]

However, you're simply too stupid to realize programming can in fact evolve (ie: evolve meaning 'change' for your puny mind), beyond the initial programmer's expectations and parameters so long as it's designed and allowed to do so.

You forget that there has to be parameters in place for this evolution to occur. It is a mathematical sequence, not a bloody lifeform.

For a self proclaimed programmer, you are certainly ignorant of programming sciences. I recommend you pick up a few books on "learning" and "adaptive" software...stuff that even the programmers themselves are amazed and surprised at.

Never mind potential programming centuries beyond our technological and understanding level, coupled with advanced technology that further dictates the randomness of said programming evolution.

If I'm coming across as arrogant, it's only because your continually stupid arguements are making this way too easy to feel superior.

Walper... you're a bloody simpleton and I accept this as a concession that you are just an arrogant borgwanking prick, basically.

Hmm...not a single point proving the Borg are evil.

I'll take your concession on the issue, with pleasure.

[Ace Pace]

I missed that one... bloody educative techniques at college suck...

Feck it all.

For a self proclaimed nerd, you sure don't keep up with the scene.

However, what you posted denotes an active decision making, which is kind of different to pure evolved instinct. Which I might say... kind of nullifies Walper's arguement.

Let me give another example, a game example, Elder Scrolls 4, has a very complex AI system, an object, an Orc, was givin a task to rake his yard, however, he was givin a hoe. The system would predictably try to make him use the hoe for raking. However, the system gave him a new task(NOT preprogrammed) and told him to go look for a rake.
From here on, understand this was NEVER programmed.
The Orc went outside, found someone else with a rake, took the rake and dropped the hoe. The other person took offense, hit back, knocked the orc out, took the Orcs hoe for his own use and left him the rake. The Orc woke up(system reset anyone?), found the rake and used it.
Thats a complete game example of self evolving AI.

[Narsil]

Hmm...not a single point proving the Borg are evil.

Prove that they aren't... without likening them to ants, because they obviously aren't like ants, ants don't go out and assimilate people because they feel like it. Ants also don't develop massive starships and energy weaponry. Ants don't develop gravity manipulation technology. Ants don't develop transwarp. Ants aren't partially made of cybernetic parts.

There's lots of ways that the Ant analogy is false, Walper.

You forget that if it has the intelligence to develop weapons of destruction, reproduce and distribute them en masse... then it is making a conscious decision as a whole. Its worker drones have little choice in the issue, and that's the only difference.

Note also how your arguement has changed from benefits to 'it's just their nature' to prove that they aren't evil.

There is no nature in the borg collective, it is one big sentient machine out to enslave all life, for whatever reason. That, Walper, that is evil.

[Batman]

Let me clarify, Batman. Lacking choice is not evil,

No. Denying choice, however, is.

Why? Depriving a living being of it's life is not evil, but you expect me to agree denying choice is?

I couldn't care less what you agree to. And what has killing got to do with anything?

anymore than ants lacking choice is.

Ants LACK choice. The Collective TAKES IT AWAY.

So does our society.

No it doesn't. It LIMITS choice.

You're familiar with the fact our society regularily enforces conformity to rules and laws, punishing those who chose to break them.

Rules and laws you AGREE to abide by, and can influence.

The BC simply takes this level of control to a higher level.

Gotcha. Because SOME levels of reduction of choice aren't evil, NO level is.
Extrapolation to infinity, Robert.

So they were enslaved in an amoral way. That changes what exactly?

I consider good and evil moral judgements. Amoral by definition is beyond those considerations.

Which has nothing to do with them being slaves.

Plus, the Collective if not singular Drones DOES have a choice. They CHOSE to cooperate with Voyager rather than assimilate her when fighting against the Biowank Aliens.

So now you're saying the Collective has choice? Wasn't the basis of your arguement? That lacking choice is what makes them evil?

The basis of my argument has been from the very beginning been that the Collective DENYING choice is what makes it evil.
The drones are not evil for being drones, the Collective is for making them drones.
Species pick-one-that-was-assimilated is not evil for having been assimilated, the Collective is for having forced assimilation on them.
Rob I know you're dense where the Borg are concerned but this is pushing it.

[Robert Walper]

Hmm...not a single point proving the Borg are evil.

Prove that they aren't...without likening them to ants, because they obviously aren't like ants, ants don't go out and assimilate people because they feel like it.

The Borg don't go out and assimilate people "because they feel like it" either. How many times do I have to restate their objectives and goals? Do you have reading comprehension problems?

Ants also don't develop massive starships and energy weaponry. Ants don't develop gravity manipulation technology. Ants don't develop transwarp. Ants aren't partially made of cybernetic parts.

They lack the intelligence (and size) to do so. Give them the intelligence and size to do so, and suddenly they're evil? I think not.

There's lots of ways that the Ant analogy is false, Walper.

You obviously don't grasp analogies very well, given you're arguing ants don't have technology or human level intelligence as if that refutes the analogy. But, hell, expecting intelligence from ants would be like expecting some from you...

You forget that if it has the intelligence to develop weapons of destruction, reproduce and distribute them en masse... then it is making a conscious decision as a whole. Its worker drones have little choice in the issue, and that's the only difference.

Still not seeing the evil there...

Note also how your arguement has changed from benefits to 'it's just their nature' to prove that they aren't evil.

Benefits was never a basis of my arguement, moron. It was merely a side note on what happens to assimilated persons...they get certain benefits. Which I then pointed out didn't outweigh the cost from most people's perspective, including my own.

There is no nature in the borg collective, it is one big sentient machine out to enslave all life, for whatever reason. That, Walper, that is evil.

Well, the Borg aren't out to enslave all life, so you're just eliminating other false point that "proves" they are evil. Thanks for the assistance on that issue, but if you're gonna argue, you might wanna look for points that support your arguement. Not that you've provided any yet, but hell, I play the lottery occasionally...