Want a Cheesesteak? No Habla Espanol!

[Dark Silver]

English Mother Fucker! Do you speak it! ~Samuel L Jackson, Pulp Fiction

PHILADELPHIA - Bistec con queso? Not at Geno's Steaks.
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An English-only ordering policy has thrust one of Philadelphia's best-known cheesesteak joints into the national immigration debate.

Situated in a South Philadelphia immigrant neighborhood, Geno's — which together with its chief rival, Pat's King of Steaks, forms the epicenter of an area described as "ground zero for cheesesteaks" — has posted small signs telling customers, "This Is AMERICA: WHEN ORDERING `SPEAK ENGLISH.'"

"They don't know how lucky they are. All we're asking them to do is learn the English language," said Geno's owner Joseph Vento, 66. "We're out to help these people, but they've got to help themselves, too."

Vento, whose grandparents struggled to learn English after immigrating from Sicily in the 1920s, said he posted the sign about six months ago amid concerns over immigration reform and the increasing number of customers who could not order in English when they wanted Philly's gooey, greasy specialty — fried steak, sliced or chopped, in a long roll, with cheese and fried onions.

Of course, it's not as if native Philadelphians speak the King's English either. A Philadelphian might order a cheesesteak by saying something like, "Yo, gimme a cheesesteak wit, will youse?" ("Wit," or "with," means with fried onions.) To which the counterman might reply: "Youse want fries widdat?"

The traditionally Italian community near Geno's has become more diverse over the decades. Immigrants from Asia and Latin America have moved in, joining longtime residents and young professionals seeking reasonably priced rowhouses. In the past 10 years, an estimated 15,000 to 20,000 Mexican immigrants — many of them here illegally, community leaders say — have settled in South Philly.

Vento said his staff is glad to help non-native speakers order in English and has never turned someone away because of a language barrier.

But the policy has "really upset a lot of a people," said Brad Baldia of Day Without An Immigrant, a coalition of immigrant groups. "For some people, I think we're just going to say, `Le gusta Pat's.'"

Juntos, a Hispanic neighborhood organization, said it plans to send people to Geno's to try to order in Spanish and may pursue court action, depending on what happens.

"His grandparents encountered the same racism and the same xenophobia," said Peter Bloom, the group's director. "Why would he begin that process over again?"

Vento said he has gotten plenty of criticism and threats. One person told him they hoped one his many neon signs flames out and burns the place down, he said. But he said he plans to hold his ground.

Customers placing orders on a recent morning seemed unfazed.

Angelica Marquez, 22 and originally from Puerto Rico, ordered in well-spoken English, but said some of her relatives struggle with the language. "They always come and just say `cheesesteak,'" Marquez said, adding that the policy "bothers her some" but not enough to keep her away.

When a non-English speaking customer showed up at the window a short time later, a clerk patiently coached him through the process. Eventually, both said "cheesesteak."

Vento, a short, fiery man with a ninth-grade education, arms covered in tattoos and a large diamond ring in his ear, also sells "freedom fries" to protest France's opposition to the
Iraq war. He rails against Mumia Abu-Jamal, the black man who was convicted of killing police Officer Daniel Faulkner in 1981 and has become a cause celebre among some death penalty opponents. Memorials to Faulkner are posted at his shop.

Those who market the city, often using images of Geno's and other famous steak shops, are watching with concern.

"I certainly wouldn't want a national audience to think it represented all of the wonderful cheesesteak makers in the whole city," said Meryl Levitz, president and chief executive of the Greater Philadelphia Tourism Marketing Corp. "This isn't representative of the Philadelphia attitude."

Competitors are seizing on the controversy.

Tony Luke's issued a statement saying it welcomes all customers "whether or not they speak a `wit' of English."

And a manager at Pat's, Kathy Smith, said of Geno's English-only policy: "That's the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard in my life. I'd rather listen to the Spanish than the foul language of the college students."

[Batman]

I say good for him. The official language of the US of A happens to be english. You want to live there, learn it. It's not a difficult language and it doesn't take much to know it well enough to be able to order a cheesesteak.

[Shark Bait]

You know when i've traveled to other countries I made an effort to learn enough of the language so that I could survive, now it seems lots of these folks who are trying to order and cant are not visitors but immigrants. Aditionally they are not being turned away the staff is trying to teach them how to order in english, perhaps a bit useful if you will be living here.

[frigidmagi]

Hey assholes, you're in our nation, YOU came HERE. It is not racist or xenophobic to ask people who packed up and moved here to learn the lanugage and laws of the nation they've fled to.

The can try all the court orders and PC bullshit they want, the average American ran out of patience when he turned on the and saw thousands of people who aren't even suppose to be here marching the streets waving the flags of other fucking countries to demand rights they don't have by fucking law.

If I went to Mexico, I would be required by fucking law to learn and speak Spainish. If I was a central American, I would be robbed coming across the border, or just shot and then looted while dying. Fuck this bullshit, game's over, ship up or be shipped out!

[Hotfoot]

I say good for him. The official language of the US of A happens to be english. You want to live there, learn it. It's not a difficult language and it doesn't take much to know it well enough to be able to order a cheesesteak.

Technically, there is no official language for the United States. Also, it is one of the more difficult languages to learn, mechanically. You may not think so, having spoken it all your life, but compared to other languages, it's quite hard. We have a lot of strange, illogical grammar rules, weird spellings, and just freaky words and words with different meanings.

Bear and bear and bare and wound and wound and to and too and two and tu-tu and where and wear and so on.

English is the language that is commonly accepted as the common language in the USA, and it is required to become a naturalized citizen, but there's no official document that says that all American citizens must learn English. It just makes life very difficult.

[Shark Bait]

You know this also reminds me of when my grand dad has talked about when he first came to the US from Italy, he learned the language went to school and eventually became a combustion engineer. He did it so I guess I have a tendancy to compair others to him, he's a smart guy but i think most could put forth much more effort at learning english.

[Batman]

I stand corrected then. English is the next best thing to an official language of the US of A.
And frankly, compared to a lot of european languages english is simple.
At least in english objects don't have gender (with the odd exception or other).

[Shark Bait]

And with spanish you got words that go all wonky when you put accent marks on them and conjugation has several odd exceptions to rules and you have gender's for everything and there are just as many idiomatic expressions. Learning a language is not easy no, but an effort should be put forth to do so if you will be living in a country where the primary language, the language of the govenrment, and business, is not your own.

[Hotfoot]

Objects may not directly have gender, but we still apply gender to objects all the time. Referring to ships as females, as well as cars, guns, you name it, while referring to other things as male (though less common).

French is not more complex than English, the simple fact is that English is an amalgam of French and German. Similarly, German is not more complex. This leaves Spanish, which is somewhat more complex in the writing of, but not necessarily the speaking of. This leaves you with Slavic and Nordic languages.

While I agree that people who want to live in America should learn the predominant language of English, you should at least make arguments that are not tied to the assertation that other languages are very hard. There are few living languages that fit that bill, and most of them are not a major immigration factor.

The entire immigration debate has gotten pretty stupid as of late. A lot of people are wanting to have their cake and eat it as well. Can't work out in the long run. Want to live here? Live here. Want to live somewhere else? Live somewhere else.

[frigidmagi]

The gender appilication to ships is slang Hotfoot. Ship is still a gender nuetral term, as is gun, boat and all the others.

[Batman]

The gender appilication to ships is slang Hotfoot. Ship is still a gender nuetral term, as is gun, boat and all the others.

Thank you, frigid.
While english speakers may (or may not) apply gender to objects, the english language does not. German does. Furthermore, while English does have its share of stupid exceptions to the rules, German is easily 2/3rds plus exception (and that's not counting the flurry of Rechtschreibreformen in recent years). German may not be the hardest language on the planet to learn, and english may not be the easiest, but english is by all means among the easier ones.

[frigidmagi]

Well correct me if I'm wrong but isn't German a mash of different tribal languages and some slavic/norse?

Meanwhile English is the result of trying to mix togather germanic language traditions with romantic language traditions and a dash of celtic language traditions... Resulting in what in any self respecting fantasy world would call a pirate's tounage.

[Batman]

Frigid I only speak it. I have no idea about its history.

[Shark Bait]

Well correct me if I'm wrong but isn't German a mash of different tribal languages and some slavic/norse?

Meanwhile English is the result of trying to mix togather germanic language traditions with romantic language traditions and a dash of celtic language traditions... Resulting in what in any self respecting fantasy world would call a pirate's tounage.

Dont forget the smattering of greek as well

[Hotfoot]

The gender appilication to ships is slang Hotfoot. Ship is still a gender nuetral term, as is gun, boat and all the others.

I'd argue that it's more than slang, but rather it's part of a mindset that has carried over from previous cultures and languages that made up English that had genders for objects built in to the words.

As far as the creation of English, it really is a mess. You've got multiple different sources making it up, resulting in a ton of contradictions, special rules, and the like. Now, I'm not much of a linguist myself, but I've studied some of the history of the language in my years trying to learn Latin.

English is one of the hardest languages in the world for foreign speakers to learn. Arguably, anyone speaking a romance language should have little trouble, as over 2/3rds of the English vocabulary consists of words originating from Latin. However, the most commonly used words originate from the Germanic which creates massive confusion when you move from words of one type to words of another. Meanwhile, the grammar is incredibly finicky. Admittedly, I've not studied German in depth, but as far as I know the largest flaw they have is that you can say a whole sentence and not have it make any sense until the last word is spoken, because you cannot appropriately assign relationships until that word is spoken.

The one point I am willing to give you is that it is most likely easier for a Spanish-speaker to learn English than to learn German, due to the inherant similarities in Spanish and English.

[frigidmagi]

Actually there are a number of lanaguages that are much more difficult, these lanaguages tend to be tonal, where the inflection of the word spoken gives it it's meaning. Imagine learning these if you're tone deaf.

[SirNitram]

German is where English got all it's stupid rules from. The sensible shit is all Latin.

Write that down. That's sensible, that is.

[Narsil]

The sensible shit is all Latin.

What is it they say:
Quidquid latine dictum sit, altum sonatur.

[SirNitram]

The sensible shit is all Latin.

What is it they say:
Quidquid latine dictum sit, altum sonatur.

Still, non illegitium carborundum est.

[Narsil]

Technically, that's 'illegitimi'.

[Mayabird]

Yeah, English is hard. My mom's been in the U.S. for twenty years and she still has some problems with English (I get drafted as her editor when I go home). However, people don't have to be at English professor level proficiency to get around. Mom mixes up some words and her grammar can get kinda wonky when she's talking about complicated things, but people can understand her just fine. For day-to-day living, laboring immigrants would probably only need to know a couple thousand words and some basic grammar (math professor immigrants never learn a damn word and teach Calculus in Chinese, but that's a rant for another day).

[B4UTRUST]

Technically, there is no official language for the United States.

Well...

Linky
Linky 2

Senate Passes Measure to make
English the National Language

62-35 vote gives assimilation
key role in immigration debate

On May 18th, 2006, the U.S. Senate approved an amendment offered by Sen. James Inhofe that would make English the national language of the United States. The amendment, offered as part of comprehensive immigration reform legislation, passed by a margin of 62-35. The measure declares that there is no affirmative right to receive services in languages other than English, except where required by federal law. In addition, the measure upholds English as part of U.S. naturalization requirements.

[SirNitram]

That immigration bill hasn't been made law yet. And all indications is there's going to be a meltdown on the subject.

[Charon]

I'm gonna go against the grain here and say that English is not a hard language to learn. In fact it's a damn easy language to learn. What is damn near impossible is speaking "correct" english. Part of the ease of the language comes from the fact that it's the bastardization of the two base languages of the damn-near entirity of Europe, Germanic and Latin. And since Europe basically took over the Western Hemisphere that means South and Central America shouldn't have too many problems. As I said before, gramatically it's damn near impossible to figure out how to speak "proper" english. You could speak it your whole life and still butcher the hell out of it. However, another nice part of the English language is that you can butcher the ever-living hell out of it and a native speaker will still be able to understand you.

In short. Immigrants need to shut the fuck up and learn the language well enough to convey their meaning.

[B4UTRUST]

That immigration bill hasn't been made law yet. And all indications is there's going to be a meltdown on the subject.

I'm aware it's not law yet Nit. Just pointing out that it has a good chance in the near future of being law though. But the Democrats will probably shoot it down.