Activitist Judges strike again.

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frigidmagi
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#1 Activitist Judges strike again.

Post by frigidmagi »

CNN
WASHINGTON (AP) -- The Supreme Court ruled Thursday that police armed with a warrant can barge into homes and seize evidence even if they don't knock, a huge government victory that was decided by President Bush's new justices.

The 5-4 ruling clearly signals the court's conservative shift following the departure of moderate Sandra Day O'Connor.

The case tested previous court rulings that police armed with warrants generally must knock and announce themselves or they run afoul of the Constitution's Fourth Amendment ban on unreasonable searches.

Justice Antonin Scalia, writing for the majority, said Detroit police acknowledge violating that rule when they called out their presence at a man's door then went inside three seconds to five seconds later.

"Whether that preliminary misstep had occurred or not, the police would have executed the warrant they had obtained, and would have discovered the gun and drugs inside the house," Scalia wrote.

But suppressing evidence is too high of a penalty, Scalia said, for errors by police in failing to properly announce themselves.

The outcome might have been different if O'Connor were still on the bench. She seemed ready, when the case was first argued in January, to rule in favor of Booker Hudson, whose house was searched in 1998.

O'Connor had worried aloud that officers around the country might start bursting into homes to execute search warrants. She asked: "Is there no policy of protecting the home owner a little bit and the sanctity of the home from this immediate entry?"

She retired before the case was decided, and a new argument was held so that Justice Samuel Alito could participate in deliberations. Alito and Bush's other Supreme Court pick, Chief Justice John Roberts, both supported Scalia's opinion.

Hudson's lawyers argued that evidence against him was connected to the improper search and could not be used against him.

Scalia said that a victory for Hudson would have given "a get-out-of-jail-free card" to him and others.

In a dissent, four justices complained that the decision erases more than 90 years of Supreme Court precedent.

"It weakens, perhaps destroys, much of the practical value of the Constitution's knock-and-announce protection," Justice Stephen Breyer wrote for himself and the three other liberal members.

Breyer said that police will feel free to enter homes without knocking and waiting a short time if they know that there is no punishment for it.

Justice Anthony M. Kennedy, a moderate, joined the conservatives in most of the ruling. He wrote his own opinion, however, to say "it bears repeating that it is a serious matter if law enforcement officers violate the sanctity of the home by ignoring the requisites of lawful entry."
This was one the fucking reasons we had the fucking revolution! What? Did the 5 justices sleep through that part of history class? Have I gone insane and made up my own version of history? Does it really only take 200 fucking lousy years of pain, blood, sweat and tears to get closer to where you started?

Fucking activist!
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#2

Post by Comrade Tortoise »

Oh sweet jesus...
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#3

Post by B4UTRUST »

Yeah this is real good. I feel sorry for the cops really. There are several states that carry what are known as "Make my day" laws where the occupant has the right to defend himself, family and house. Usually this means that if you burst through the front door and he puts a couple of 9mil rounds into you its your own damned fault and after a ballistics report and examination of the gun you get the gun back, get to press charges against the idiot you shot and you don't go to jail.

Now what's going to happen when cops kick in the door of somebody who has a gun, do it unannounced and get a shotgun blast to the face because now they don't have to announce themselves? I have guns in my house and am very willing to fire at someone coming through my door without announcing who it is... Why? Because it's my right to defend myself.

Some cop is going to kick down the wrong door of the wrong house occupied by the wrong person and get killed. And then who's to blame? The cops for doing their job? The occupants for defending themselves against someone breaking into their place? Yeah...this doesn't help anyone and is just going to get someone killed. Good job.
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#4

Post by Hotfoot »

It should be noted that the police had a legally obtained warrant. This was not an illegal search, and unless I am mistaken, there are states that can issue no-knock warrants, such as for drug warrants, to help prevent the suspects from flushing the evidence.

B4, be realistic. When the cops bust in with a no-knock warrant, they're not going to be inclined to give you the time to get up, walk to your gun storage area, load the gun, and then pull it on them. If they're busting the door down, unless you've got that gun loaded and on your lap, they'll easily shoot you before you could shoot them. These aren't going to be Law and Order detectives, they're going to be, most likely, SWAT style officers, already loaded with shotguns, SMGs, carbines, and body armor.

The question here is - how important is the knock and announce clause to police warrants? The balance here is that allowing alleged criminals the time to dispose of evidence makes the warrant useless, or at least damn near for specific types of crimes. I would argue that more stringent measures need to be applied for applying for a no-knock warrant, but they shouldn't be declared illegal right off the bat.
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#5

Post by B4UTRUST »

Hotfoot wrote:B4, be realistic. When the cops bust in with a no-knock warrant, they're not going to be inclined to give you the time to get up, walk to your gun storage area, load the gun, and then pull it on them. If they're busting the door down, unless you've got that gun loaded and on your lap, they'll easily shoot you before you could shoot them. These aren't going to be Law and Order detectives, they're going to be, most likely, SWAT style officers, already loaded with shotguns, SMGs, carbines, and body armor.
I am being realistic. I work with some paranoid mother fuckers, one of which has enough weapons and ammo in his house to supply a small militia. I am talking hard core, paranoid gun nuts here. And knowing these people I can attest to the fact that they have a gun in damn near every single room of their house, most of them well within a hands reach of where they are normally sitting. Beside their bed, beside the couch, on a shelf in the bathroom, under the kitchen sink.

We had a recent incident in my shop to this extent. One of the guys in my shop was in his living room. Him and his roommate just chilling on the couch. Some dumbass decided that since it was the wee hours of the morning and no bright lights were on that he could break in and grab shit.

Guy managed to get through the front door with gun in hand. Thats about as far as he got before he had three rounds put into him from across the room.

If the cops are in body armor, thats great for them. Not all warrents warrent the use of a SWAT team to execute. Mark my words, it'll happen at some point.
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#6

Post by Hotfoot »

B4UTRUST wrote:I am being realistic. I work with some paranoid mother fuckers, one of which has enough weapons and ammo in his house to supply a small militia. I am talking hard core, paranoid gun nuts here. And knowing these people I can attest to the fact that they have a gun in damn near every single room of their house, most of them well within a hands reach of where they are normally sitting. Beside their bed, beside the couch, on a shelf in the bathroom, under the kitchen sink.

We had a recent incident in my shop to this extent. One of the guys in my shop was in his living room. Him and his roommate just chilling on the couch. Some dumbass decided that since it was the wee hours of the morning and no bright lights were on that he could break in and grab shit.

Guy managed to get through the front door with gun in hand. Thats about as far as he got before he had three rounds put into him from across the room.

If the cops are in body armor, thats great for them. Not all warrents warrent the use of a SWAT team to execute. Mark my words, it'll happen at some point.
A no-knock warrant almost always does warrant the use of a SWAT team. They're not that common, and they're used specifically to keep suspects from flushing drugs down the drain. If some idiot decides to get a no-knock warrant and executes it with plainclothes officers, then he's asking for it.

When cops do a drug bust, they assume that the suspects are armed, and go in accordingly. This isn't some punk sneaking in under cover of night. This is several heavily armed men in uniform storming your entrances - front and rear, maybe even windows. If you've barricaded your house, they can do a pull, ripping windows and doors out of the structure to get in. They have tear gas and flashbang grenades, and multiple ways to deploy them.

Mark my words, when looking down the barrels of several rifles with many uniformed men in body armor behind them, most anyone will think twice before pulling the trigger. Also, just because the police don't knock on entry to the home doesn't mean they don't shout "POLICE, FREEZE" when they see a suspect.

But beating your chest and going "HOME DEFENSE ROAR!" doesn't cover the heart of the issue, which is how vital the knock and announce clause is to the Fourth Amendment (such a clause is not actually stated in the amendment itself as far as I know, it was added later). I would argue that if the warrant is legally obtained through normal channels, it is a valid search. If the police feel that evidence may be destroyed or the suspect may cause harm to others if the police announce themselves, then they should provide additional evidence stating as such to the body signing the warrant.
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#7

Post by Batman »

At least from what I gather from the article they're not granting special no-knock warrants (which I basically would agree with) so much as removing the 'must-knock' qualifier from warrants in general which I DO happen to disagree with.
Some more details may be required.
EDIT:A quick-and-dirty google revealed that there already are no-knock warrants to be had if the suspects are wont to destroy crucial evidence or believed to be armed.
So either I'm still missing something or they seem to indeed be removing the knocking requirement in general.
Last edited by Batman on Fri Jun 16, 2006 7:16 am, edited 1 time in total.
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#8

Post by Hotfoot »

Justice Antonin Scalia, writing for the majority, said Detroit police acknowledge violating that rule when they called out their presence at a man's door then went inside three seconds to five seconds later.
It seems to be that this instance involves the police announcing themselves and then not waiting long enough before entering. So it's not a situation of not announcing themselves, but rather not waiting for acknowledgement by the suspects before entering. It doesn't specifically say that cops can enter without announcing themselves, but rather the evidence should not be supressed by the act of not waiting a "reasonable time" after announcing.

However, you're right, there shouldn't be a complete dismantling of the knock and announce clause, and any warrant that uses no-knock should be held to a higher standard of evidence than a normal warrant. The question is should the evidence be suppressed? Maybe, but the fact is they did have a warrant. Should the officers face disciplinary actions? Sure. More than likely they've opened themselves up to civil suits in the process of this case, but that's just speculation.
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#9

Post by Batman »

What, pray tell, constitutes reasonable time? 3 to 5 seconds is ample time to at least acknowledge them. Hell, should they wait for the suspect to finish shaving, finish his coffe and take out the trash before answering the door?
Assuming there is an official time limit thecops were stupid for not adhering to it, and probably deserve to be disciplined in some way, but they had a valid warrant, and they ARE allowed to force entry so I don't see why the evidence should be dismissed.
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