Red on Red, continued

[Ace Pace]

Linka

US delight as Iraqi rebels turn their guns on al-Qa'eda
By Oliver Poole in Qaim
(Filed: 04/07/2005)

American troops on the Syrian border are enjoying a battle they have long waited to see - a clash between foreign al-Qa'eda fighters and Iraqi insurgents.

Tribal leaders in Husaybah are attacking followers of Abu Musab Zarqawi, the Jordanian-born terrorist who established the town as an entry point for al-Qa'eda jihadists being smuggled into the country.

The reason, the US military believes, is frustration at the heavy-handed approach of the foreigners, who have kidnapped and assassinated local leaders and imposed a strict Islamic code.

Fighting, which could be clearly heard at night over the weekend, first broke out in May when as many as 50 mortar rounds were fired across the city. But, to the surprise of the American garrison, this time it was not the target.

If a shell landed near the US base, "they'd adjust their fire and not shoot at us", Lt Col Tim Mundy said. "They shot at each other."

The trigger was the assassination of a tribal sheikh, from the Sulaiman tribe, ordered by Zarqawi for inviting senior US marines for lunch. American troops gained an insight into the measures the jihadists had imposed during recent house-to-house searches in nearby towns and villages.

Shops selling music and satellite dishes had been closed. Women were ordered to wear all-enveloping clothing and men forbidden from wearing western clothes.

Anyone considered to be aiding coalition forces was being killed or kidnapped. That included those with links to the government - seen as a US puppet - such as water or electricity officials. As a result local services had collapsed.

Captain Thomas Sibley, intelligence officer of 3rd battalion, 2nd Marine Regiment, based in Qaim, said: "People here were committed supporters of the insurgency but you cannot now even get a marriage licence.

"The tribes are the only system or organisation left and they appear to have stepped in.

"In the last week our camp in the town was attacked and the attackers got ambushed on the way back by two machineguns and mortar fire. That is good news for us."

Baghdad recently warned that Iraqi insurgents, many of them nationalists rather than Islamists, and al-Qa'eda cells were working more closely together than in the past. That was brought into doubt when the bodies of three foreigners, believed to be insurgents, were discovered in Ramadi, apparently killed by Iraqis.

But the extent of the jihadist presence in Hasaybah - and therefore the subsequent tension - is unique.

Foreign fighters first started to arrive two years ago after Zarqawi bought properties to use as safe houses for arrivals before they could be funnelled east towards Baghdad and other major cities.

The police fled in November. In mid-June, al-Qa'eda units took over key buildings, including mosques and government offices. "Al-Qa'eda in Iraq" flags were raised.

The city, 240 miles north-west of Baghdad and adjacent to the insurgent centre of Qaim, is so dangerous that soldiers in the US base sleep in bunkers because of mortar and rocket attacks.

Following al-Qa'eda's seizure of the main buildings a number of residents fled. Arkan Salim, 56, who left with his wife and four children, said: "We thought they were patriotic. Now we discovered that they are sick and crazy.

"They interfered in everything, even how we raise our children. They turned the city into hell, and we cannot live in it anymore."

[Josh]

Iraq has one of the stronger secular traditions in the region. We can say now that it probably was inevitable that these hardline Islamist assholes coming and trying to clamp down with the extreme Taliban-style rule would clash with a people that had gotten used to shaving and other such minor personal liberties as they had under the previous regime.

The reprecussions of this are potentially vast for the whole region. The fact that the Jihadists are turning off the locals gives strength to the potential for a reasonably secular government. We can hope, anyway.

[The Morrigan]

Perhaps there's hope for the country yet. I won't be holding my breath though. I still think it's just a matter of which group of authoritarian nutbags come out on top.

Then again, I'm not sure that anybody but authoritarian nutbags can effectively rule a country like that.

[frigidmagi]

And I say you need to think again. The fact of the matter is that it does not take a dicatatior to rule. Is a democracy more work? Sure. So what? It has been done and will be done in nations just like Iraq, from Thailand to the Phillipines. There is no such thing has a nation that is doomed to dictatiorship it is only a matter of how much time, money and blood are you willing to spend to force it through.

I've been hearing this shit ever since I got back and you know what? BULLSHIT!
"They're not like us, they're not ready for freedom, they don't have our traditions, our values, blah, blah, blah..." What the fuck do you idiots know? You ever talk with any of them? You ever met one? I have and I say they can do it if we don't abadon them to the monsters. Yeah it's hard, welcome to life suck it up or leave.

Are we going to ignore the stated will of the Millions who risked life and limb to vote now? Are they suddenly unimportent to what Iraq can and cannot do? They want it. They risked their lives for it, they stood out there unarmed and unprotected. No one made them, in fact it would have been sooo much easier for them to just stay home. After all they didn't have "our values and traditions" right? What's a vote to them? Apprantely it's alot more to them than it is to my own countrymen, who the fuck are you to say no you can't have it you're not ready?

I'm not that fucking idiot in the white house, I won't sell you shit. This will take time, money and blood.

Lady this is revolution we're trying to work here and revolution isn't easy, clean or pretty. Revolution is always and I mean always, a blood soaked, hard, long mess.

[Robert Walper]

Well said, frigid.

[Kreshna Aryaguna Nurzaman]

In Indonesia, the fundies used to scare-off people; partly because their 'hardline' public image, partly because people and politicians would feel 'guilty' to bash 'fellow Moslems'.

In Iraq, the fundies got their ass kicked by the tribal leaders.

Way to go, Iraqis! :thumbsup

[Cpl Kendall]

I think the question is Frigid, are Americans willing to spend the blood needed to give the Iraqi's democracy?

The Iraqi's have indicated that they are willing to spend their blood for it, they did after all turn out to vote when everyone epected them to stay home out of fear. But I keep hearing that Americans are steadily turning away from the war and aren't willing to invest the effort needed into Iraq.

[frigidmagi]

We'll be doing for at least 3 more years. If Bush can serve up a sucess then support will grow. No doubt Condi and Rummy are feeling the pressure.

[The Morrigan]

And I say you need to think again. The fact of the matter is that it does not take a dicatatior to rule. Is a democracy more work? Sure. So what? It has been done and will be done in nations just like Iraq, from Thailand to the Phillipines. There is no such thing has a nation that is doomed to dictatiorship it is only a matter of how much time, money and blood are you willing to spend to force it through.

I've been hearing this shit ever since I got back and you know what? BULLSHIT!
"They're not like us, they're not ready for freedom, they don't have our traditions, our values, blah, blah, blah..." What the fuck do you idiots know? You ever talk with any of them? You ever met one? I have and I say they can do it if we don't abadon them to the monsters. Yeah it's hard, welcome to life suck it up or leave.

Are we going to ignore the stated will of the Millions who risked life and limb to vote now? Are they suddenly unimportent to what Iraq can and cannot do? They want it. They risked their lives for it, they stood out there unarmed and unprotected. No one made them, in fact it would have been sooo much easier for them to just stay home. After all they didn't have "our values and traditions" right? What's a vote to them? Apprantely it's alot more to them than it is to my own countrymen, who the fuck are you to say no you can't have it you're not ready?

I'm not that fucking idiot in the white house, I won't sell you shit. This will take time, money and blood.

Lady this is revolution we're trying to work here and revolution isn't easy, clean or pretty. Revolution is always and I mean always, a blood soaked, hard, long mess.

I do not believe that any country is 'doomed to dictatorship'. I never said the country was doomed to dictatorship. In fact I never said a lot of things that you are claiming I did. I do however, believe that an attempt to transplant an alien concept holus bolus into a society that has no tradition of it and expect it to take imemdiately is fraught with difficulties and there is no guarantee that it will work. Any government which rules Iraq is going to have to be authoritairian to keep any semblance of law and order there.

You're damned right the road to a fully-functional democratic government in Iraq is going to be long and bloody. Very long and very bloody. It's going to take a damned sight more than three years. In my opinion, it is also going to be pretty damned trecherous.

[Kreshna Aryaguna Nurzaman]

I believe what Morrigan tried to say that Iraq may not be ready for democracy yet; especially in such instant.

If we take a look at Singapore and Malaysia, they started with "benevolent dictatorship", with a lot of government control and the likes.. Yet there are now greater degree of freedom compared to early days. Of course, good level of education and the likes, those people are more than ready for democracy now.

Indonesia is the worst case where democracy is manipulated by the local lords to maintain their domination. It is also probably the country with the worst tradition regarding to democracy. For example, there is a Javanese tradition called pecut in electing a 'Major' for the village. Pecut (literally translated to English as whip) is the bribe money to ensure the loyalty of the voters, and the candidate with larger pecut usually wins.

And the worst of it; it is an accepted tradition in Javanese culture.

And it's only about election. How about demonstration? Well, would you believe me if I say most people in Indonesia are not demonstrating to defend what they believe is right, but to receive 'lunch money' from the politicians above? When I was a uni student, I demonstrated out of conscience (including the Public Masturbation (TM), although it was a different kind of 'conscience'), but now people demonstrate out of BRIBE MONEY.




And the saddest part, as now 'democracy' is bringing more harm to Indonesia, people tend to be more and more swayed by Islamic Syari'a movement; foolishly thinking that the fundie ways would be better.

I'm not saying Suharto should return. No. In fact, that bastard deserves a firing squad at the leniest.




My point is: I think democracy needs a "cultural readiness" to be implemented; people should be educated what democracy is all about, and things like feudalistic mentality should be purged.

Myself is a bleeding-heart liberal, but I have to admit that liberalism would not work in Indonesia; not yet. Not with this current level of education and the general attitude of the people.

I don't know much about Iraq, though. Are they ready for democracy, or not?