Private Military Companies

[Hotfoot]

Well, this might not be the best place for a discussion on PMCs, so please feel free to move it if this is inappropriate for this forum.

While surfing YouTube today, I came across something interesting. The people who made the videogame "Army of Two" which is, at best, a comedic, lighthearted look at mercenary work (complete with fist-pounding and rough housing), did an actual, serious (albeit short) documentary on PMCs across the world.

Part 1
Part 2
Part 3
Part 4

Now, we all know that mercenaries have been a fact of life since the dawn of time, but what about today? Obviously, it's a profitable industry, but is it right? What sorts of freedoms should be allowed to mercenaries? What sorts of restrictions? Similar to Bounty Hunters, who are effectively Law Enforcement for Hire, they have a lot of freedoms, especially if they set up shop in a "Gray Area" like the Ukranian group in the documentary did.

For those of you in the Military, what are your feelings on these individuals who left a military to join a PMC? Would you do the same?

Right now, a part of me thinks back to Robocop, where the Detroit Police were in such horrid working conditions with such lousy benefits where a company could step in and attempt to provide law enforcement. Obviously this overestimates the strength of the PMCs that currently exist while vastly underestimating the strength of the United States if we get our heads on straight, but other nations may come to depend almost entirely on PMCs.

[Cpl Kendall]

For those of you in the Military, what are your feelings on these individuals who left a military to join a PMC?

Scum mostly (I know a few). You don't join the military for a paycheque and if that's what you want there are plenty of other industries that can use your military skills.

Would you do the same?

No.

Now, we all know that mercenaries have been a fact of life since the dawn of time, but what about today? Obviously, it's a profitable industry, but is it right? What sorts of freedoms should be allowed to mercenaries? What sorts of restrictions? Similar to Bounty Hunters, who are effectively Law Enforcement for Hire, they have a lot of freedoms, especially if they set up shop in a "Gray Area" like the Ukranian group in the documentary did.

The most logical thing to do is to whistle up another Geneva Convention and update it to include mercs, placing the same restrictions on them that the military operates under as well as the benefits and make any violaters subject to the laws of the host country or extradition to the ICC.

Right now, a part of me thinks back to Robocop, where the Detroit Police were in such horrid working conditions with such lousy benefits where a company could step in and attempt to provide law enforcement. Obviously this overestimates the strength of the PMCs that currently exist while vastly underestimating the strength of the United States if we get our heads on straight, but other nations may come to depend almost entirely on PMCs.

Modern mercs have a horrible track record of performance, with companies like Executive Outcomes effectively controlling the diamond economy in Sierra Leone. Virtually the only reputable mercenary company in modern times has been the French Foreign Legion and they have an exculsive contract with the French government and have French officers.

[B4UTRUST]

I guess I take a different stance then Kendall. I, for one, seriously looked into joining a PMC once I got out of the service, namely Blackwater USA. I actually talked to a rep and they offered me a very nice package to come sign on as an aircraft mechanic. So I have really no qualms about people dropping out of the service and using their talents elsewhere.

As for his remark about not joining the military for the money, well that's certainly true. The military doesn't pay very well for the shit you have to deal with. However, getting some training out of the military and a job skill that you can turn around in the civilian world for a nice chunk of change is a big plus. I'm all for the whole mom and apple pie bit for joining up in the service, but honestly as bad as my career has been thus far, it's just another job to me. I just happen to be under a contract in this one that I can't break. I've lost any delusions about the military awhile ago.

So yeah, my take on PMCs, *shrugs* they've always been around and most likely always will. Along with prostitution they're one of the oldest professions there is. And they pay a good bit better then the actual military.

Now, having said that, I do believe that they should be held to the same or similar standards as the rest of us and should not be granted carte blanche to do as they please.

[Cpl Kendall]

As for his remark about not joining the military for the money, well that's certainly true. The military doesn't pay very well for the shit you have to deal with. However, getting some training out of the military and a job skill that you can turn around in the civilian world for a nice chunk of change is a big plus. I'm all for the whole mom and apple pie bit for joining up in the service, but honestly as bad as my career has been thus far, it's just another job to me. I just happen to be under a contract in this one that I can't break. I've lost any delusions about the military awhile ago.

I got fucked royally after I got hurt and caught the PTSD so I have no illusions as to the military's real face, however their are plenty of industries I could go to for a paycheque that don't include a merc company. Communications consulting for GDLS comes to mind as does working for CSIS (Canada's FBI/CIA). Anything from working on an offshore rig to a UN communications officer is available. Hell you could take an infantryman and stick him in any entry level position and he'll probably be running his section in a few years just on his leadership experiance alone.

I would consider the Legion, because their for all purposes another branch of the French Army. But I'd rather not work for people of questionable ethics. A fair number of guys are "securing" diamond mines in Africa, shooting people who try to smuggle one out to feed the family doesn't appeal to me.

Now, having said that, I do believe that they should be held to the same or similar standards as the rest of us and should not be granted carte blanche to do as they please.

Indeed.

[B4UTRUST]

Yes, granted, there are other industries that one can apply their military gained job skills to in the civilian sector. Some are harder to find then others. Yes, leadership experiance from battlefield conditions gives you a big up over compitition, however the ability to accurately shoot a moving target at 100 meters while you yourself are moving at a dead sprint isn't so easy to transfer over. You're either headed for a job in the police(swat maybe?) or the PMC probably. Unless you went in with the bodyguards, bounty hunters and hitmen jobs...

I'm an aircraft mechanic who knows heavies. I specialize in C-130s and their varients. There is a lot of places I can get picked up for that. But it's just a matter of which one is going to pay me best for my skills. That's the point behind a lot of these places. It's not a matter of not having other options(limited though they may be in some cases), it's a matter of making the most money.

[frigidmagi]

At this point I suppose I should chip in. Before we start, Kendall, B4 and I all served in different organizations. Kendall if I remember correct served in the Canadian forces, meaning he even served a different country. There are gonna be cultural differences.

For those of you in the Military, what are your feelings on these individuals who left a military to join a PMC?

It honestly depends on the company in question. There are a couple who have decent reps. They're mostly small time and do things like hostage recuses and such. Not a wide market there.

As for Black Water and their kind. Well I would have to agree with the majority of my old platoon. Traitors. Damned Traitors to the uniform. Blackwater goons have pulled rifles on US troops, dropped chem weapons on us, and generally acted like drunk frat boys loose in a small town. Before the war I had never heard of Blackwater, although I had heard of companies like them and the word was don't bother signing up if you have a soul or a shred of honor in you. Because if you're a trigger puller, you will end up in some dirt poor hell hole, helping the Man keep it poor. Some of you may think that's an odd view for Marines working for the US government to take but there it is.

There are alot of viable reasons to join the military, fortune hunting ain't one of them and anyone who does is either untrustworthy, stupid, or both.

B4, Kendall and myself have all voiced complaints, cynicism and sheer hatred at our chain of commands, our Veteran's Group and sometimes our governments. In my opinion however the faults and shortcomings of the three above do not excuse joining mercenary companies that have no loyalty to the nation or the service. Doing so is an act of betrayal. It is throwing away the old loyalties and taking a new one to mere profit. To me that is unacceptable and not excusable. A trooper should stand for something greater for himself, or else he's just a nicely clothed thug, a member of a really powerful gang. I will not accept that. I was not a thug. My men, my fellow marines were not just gangsters with nice toys.

These mercs? That's all they are, well trained street thugs chasing the dollar. To hell with that.

Despite all the bullshit, losses and pain I suffered in those 4 years. Despite the fact that my war is rapidly becoming meaningless and a waste for no good reason. Despite that, I would join again but I would join the United States Marine Corp, not Mercenaries Inc. Not now, not ever.

You can call me a fool for that if you like. It'll only prove to me that you're a waste of skin if there ever was one.

[Cpl Kendall]

Well said frigid, that's what I was trying to say but lacked the ability. And yes I am a Canadian Army Veteran, so like you say there are cultural differences.

Edit: Though Afghanistan is quite the merc haven that Iraq is, there's still a good number of them there. And from what the guys have told me, it's the ones you'd least expect to be thugs that are the problem (like the American companies) and the ones you would expect to go on a rape/murder spree (like the South Africans) that are the most professional.

[B4UTRUST]

Kendall, I think you'll find that the reason that the American groups are so bad while the other ones that you would expect to be horrible are actually decent people is simply based on need. They have to behave themselves, be professional and credible else they'll lose out of their contracts to others who can be. Blackwater doesn't have to be as Uncle Sam foots pleanty of their bills.

Those like Blackwater are little more then thugs with guns, good training and lots of government dollars backing them. The way they act over seas is from what I've seen little different then how they act in their own back yard. This I can say from experiance as my parents house is less then 20 minutes away from their largest training and recruitment facility and I've been there a few times myself. As I said, I seriously considered joining up with them. I'm not a trigger puller, I'm just a mechanic. But I've since decided not to deal with them. Instead I'm looking at other government contractors like Raytheon, L3 Comm, Lockheed, etc. Granted, the package Blackwater offers is rather nice, or it was for me, but there's just too much negative about them.

However, that said, as I've said before I do see a need for them. In a time where the US is very restricted in places because of things like the Hauge Accords and the Geneva Conventions, there is a place for people who are able to operate outside of the law to get things done that absolutely need to be done. But I don't agree with the carte blanche policy given to Blackwater. But I do see a need for them in some cases.

Another thing that Frigid pointed out is the PMCs involved in Africa and some of the other TWCs acting as nothing more then hired goons to keep the shipment of goods flowing. Blood diamonds, for instance. That's just bad business all the way around. Well, metaphorically speaking anyway. I'm sure it's a rather profitable business for them otherwise they wouldn't be in it.

I don't believe that it is all PMCs that are the problem. Rather the ones like Blackwater that is more or less government sanctioned to do whatever it is they want to do with the gov. turning a blind eye to it. Much like it turned a blind eye to Haliburton and it's fuckups until it couldn't afford to keep that eye blind. Those are the problems right there. Kendall pointed out the example of the FFL as an honest PMC. That right there shows that there are ones who are decent, credible, professional and have such strong ties to their home country that they're damn near just another arm of the official military.

[Cpl Kendall]

Kendall, I think you'll find that the reason that the American groups are so bad while the other ones that you would expect to be horrible are actually decent people is simply based on need. They have to behave themselves, be professional and credible else they'll lose out of their contracts to others who can be. Blackwater doesn't have to be as Uncle Sam foots pleanty of their bills.

Sounds reasonable to me.

Those like Blackwater are little more then thugs with guns, good training and lots of government dollars backing them. The way they act over seas is from what I've seen little different then how they act in their own back yard. This I can say from experiance as my parents house is less then 20 minutes away from their largest training and recruitment facility and I've been there a few times myself. As I said, I seriously considered joining up with them. I'm not a trigger puller, I'm just a mechanic. But I've since decided not to deal with them. Instead I'm looking at other government contractors like Raytheon, L3 Comm, Lockheed, etc. Granted, the package Blackwater offers is rather nice, or it was for me, but there's just too much negative about them.

Good choice. I think Lonestar is on this forum, you should PM him. He works for a contractor and is former US Navy. Maybe he's got some insight.

However, that said, as I've said before I do see a need for them. In a time where the US is very restricted in places because of things like the Hauge Accords and the Geneva Conventions, there is a place for people who are able to operate outside of the law to get things done that absolutely need to be done. But I don't agree with the carte blanche policy given to Blackwater. But I do see a need for them in some cases.

I have no doubt there is a need (Canada employs a South African company for dog handling), I don't have to like it much though. It's an unrealistic dream I have of a properly funded and up to strength military.

Another thing that Frigid pointed out is the PMCs involved in Africa and some of the other TWCs acting as nothing more then hired goons to keep the shipment of goods flowing. Blood diamonds, for instance. That's just bad business all the way around. Well, metaphorically speaking anyway. I'm sure it's a rather profitable business for them otherwise they wouldn't be in it.

Agreed, I know a few guys that went on to guard diamond mines in Africa. There's really nothing good to say about it.

I don't believe that it is all PMCs that are the problem. Rather the ones like Blackwater that is more or less government sanctioned to do whatever it is they want to do with the gov. turning a blind eye to it. Much like it turned a blind eye to Haliburton and it's fuckups until it couldn't afford to keep that eye blind. Those are the problems right there. Kendall pointed out the example of the FFL as an honest PMC. That right there shows that there are ones who are decent, credible, professional and have such strong ties to their home country that they're damn near just another arm of the official military.

I wouldn't have much of a problem with more FL's popping up. Spain also has one IIRC.