Star Wars Post ROTJ thought experiment

Stofsk · Post by **Stofsk** » Fri Sep 11, 2009 8:00 am

We all have an opinion with regards to the quality of the Star Wars Expanded Universe. Some of us might think that most of it is trash, and that a lot of it could be thrown out and it would be a good thing.

I propose in this thread that we hash out alternate ideas as to how the story after Return of the Jedi could have evolved. The reason why I've made this thread is because I've been playing in Hotfoot's SW Saga Edition VOIP game and it's been a blast so far, and it's made me want to run a game of my own.

What do you like and dislike about the events that transpired after ROTJ? What would you keep, and what would you discard?

-The ultimate fate of the Galactic Empire and the Rebel Alliance. Who wins the Galactic Civil War? Does the Empire fall or does it evolve in much the same way that the Roman Empire evolved from the Roman Republic? (with Emperors like Nero and Caligula considered 'speed bumps' so to speak)

-What does Luke do? Does he recreate the Jedi Order? If so, how will it be different to the Order from the Old Republic?

-In this AU, Infinities-verse, whatever, what kind of divergences are there from the pre-existing EU - for example, do the Vong invade, do they even exist? Does the New Republic form, and if so, is it called the New Republic or something more sensible like the Second Republic (or just, y'know, the Republic)?

-What other elements can you think of for this experiment?

~

What are my ideas? I'm toying with several. I'd like to set it a good deal ahead into the future, perhaps a century (so Legacy era from the EU). There are quite a few things that impress me about the Legacy era, for instance I actually think I like the idea that the Empire prevails in the Civil War but 'mellows' out a bit. Put an Emperor who is more benevolent and perhaps the Empire might be a force for good. If as we see in the Prequels, the Republic has been stagnating for centuries and has become a bureaucratic nightmare of do-nothing politicians and a Jedi Order that does nothing but preserve the status quo, perhaps it was an inevitable thing for it to have fallen.

I'm inspired by RedImperator's alternate-EU outline which he posted years ago over on SDN. Some of this stuff comes from that.

After Palpatine's demise, the Empire descended into warlordism - I'd keep that part from the original EU. The Alliance kept on plugging away but like in real life, the solution to the conflict became a compromise of sorts. Rather than restore the Republic along with its myriad flaws, the Rebels reached an agreement with one of the moderate factions in the Empire. The Empire would restore some of the functions of the Old Republic, in particular reinstate the Senate which Palpatine had swept away.

Individual warlords become like what the Rebel Alliance once was - a guerrilla force. Luke (and Leia) become the leaders of a new Jedi Order. But I haven't thought up what to do with them. I like the idea that the new Jedi would do things a little differently than the old Jedi, for a start they wouldn't be as political as the old Order. At the same time, I like the idea of the Imperial Knights from the Legacy era.

One idea I just thought of now is that Leia becomes the Empress after being one of the chief architects of the compromise plan. Remember in the OT, she's a Princess and a Senator, so it's not too much of a stretch to see her becoming a Queen figure of sorts. (it's really the EU that gave us this "I'm hardcore for DEMOCRACY!!!" shit, and the original plan for ROTJ was for Leia to be crowned Queen of what remained of her people, I'm just taking it a couple steps further) If Leia becomes Empress it's not a stretch for Luke to train new Jedi as protectors of the office, since she's his sister and everything.

I wouldn't have the Vong at all. Hate them. I'd also not have the crappy 'lame crisis of the week' thing that characterised the New Republic stories. Dark Empire's Wankatine with his endless clones would also be ditched post haste. I was never happy with the 'Jacen becomes a Sith Lord' thing either.

Thoughts? Opinions? Contrary views?

General Havoc · Post by **General Havoc** » Fri Sep 11, 2009 12:22 pm

I never read the extended universe. Not one little bit. I was always a fan of the movies of course (the originals), and I heard bits and pieces fourth-hand of what the EU was doing, but it never really interested me. Therefore my opinion will be one that has no reference point from the EU (for better or worse).

I always assumed the Empire would survive the Battle of Endor. No other feasible Galactic organization would appear to exist. The republic, by then, was as moribund as the old Roman one was after the death of Augustus. I know that people loathed the re-mastered editions of RoTJ showing the celebrations on all the planets of the Empire, but that always struck me as a perfectly reasonable reaction to the death of Palpatine and the destruction of his second Death Star. What was being celebrated on Coruscant was not the end of the Empire, it was the end of Palpatine, much like how Nero's murder was not performed so as to destroy the Roman Empire, but to save it.

That's not to say that nothing would change. Restless sectors and planets would take advantage of the chaos to declare independence from the Empire, including many of member-states of the Alliance. The Republic after all was (in its heyday) only a loose coalition of mostly-independent worlds, some of whom were even feudal states. A confederation at best. The Republic already had a massive disaffection problem even before Palpatine took over. As soon as they even went so far as to create a national army, the roof fell in.

But the hard core of the Empire, Coruscant and the other major worlds of the Star Wars Universe, those would fall together rather than apart even if the immense apparatus of the Imperial Bureaucracy wasn't holding them there. The fact is that there are serious advantages to Empire in any circumstance. The suppression of lawlessness (which, however laudable their goals, the Rebel Alliance is hardly in the business of doing), is just good policy when one has a city-planet that requires ungodly amounts of imported food just to sustain its population. Given that the bulk of the Imperial fleet was still intact following Endor, and also given that most of the pro-Palpatine faction was slaughtered in that debacle, it would shock me if the local authorities running the heartland of the Empire didn't immediately pick up where Palpatine had left off, as it were. Democracy is all well and good, but these people have planets to feed, and societies to keep running.

So what would happen? Chaos for a while. Warlords would spring up with proclamations of universal dominion. Bereft of the legitimacy and governmental structure that the Galactic Empire provided (for better or worse), these would likely recede into petty fiefdoms before too long. You simply cannot hold an entire planet enthralled by the force of one man's personality, let alone groups of planets. Some would be able to hold their holdings together by military rule and main force, but the complexities of these sorts of systems are somewhat dependent on enormous chains of supply and support. I do not think you would see sector-wide mini-empires of relic Imperial forces, for the simple reason that there would be nothing to bind them together anymore. Most of the crews and soldiers of these warlord-doms have families in sectors other than the ones that their admiral or general is proclaiming himself God-Emperor of. Support for such people would dwindle down to the pirate-band level very quickly.

That Palpatine was a fool doesn't change the fact that the Empire was not a terrible idea on some levels, and I think the pragmatists of the Alliance (Ackbar, Mothma, maybe even Leia) would see that. The newly truncated Empire would be more or less up for grabs in a sense, for anyone with legitimacy, political acumen, and the will to employ it. At the same time, experiences like having a Palpatine (or a Stalin or Mao) running the show tend to scar not just the populace, but the bureaucracy as well. Single-man rule only works over a wide-scale empire when it either has the support of the establishment, or can enforce said support through unspeakable cruelty and intrigue games. One bout of the latter is usually enough to get even the secret police to lose interest in repeating the process. Palpatine's fall would be followed quickly by a purge within the inner core of the Empire, as his cronies and secret police were flushed out by the local administrators of the Empire's heartland and core. By the time the Alliance consolidated their victory and moved on the core of the Empire, the core would be ready to receive them, in any sense of the word. Frankly, the smarter heads in the Alliance would probably allow them the time to do so intentionally. The death of Palpatine and the dismantlement of his "Rule by Fear" mechanisms would mean that the primary Causus Beli for the Alliance was removed. This doesn't mean the Alliance would disband, but it does mean that the time for open battle would end and negotiations begin. Only a blood-sated lunatic would relish the notion of storming (or worse-yet, besieging) Coruscant.

I could see someone from the Rebel Alliance becoming Empress (or some more suitable title). Empires tend to be ruled by whoever kills off the previous Emperor after all, and Leia has the acumen, the bloodline (adoptive though it may be), and the familial connections (via Luke) to do so. By that point, the Empire in question would look very different than the one in the movies. For one thing it would be a lot smaller. Planets like Mon Calamari and Sullust are unlikely to countenance re-joining any Empire, no matter who runs it, and the politically savvy thing to do would be to take the route of letting them go politically, but keeping them within a friendly diplomatic framework. For such purposes, the Alliance itself would serve much better than any restored Republic. This mechanism would consist essentially of enrolling the newly truncated Empire within the Alliance as its most powerful member, much like Athens did in the 3rd century with the revival of the Athenian League after the Peloponnesian War. This preserves the essential common-defense policy that made the Rebel Alliance work in the first place, without giving rise to round 2 of the internecine chaos that caused the fall of the Republic in the first place, something that nobody, no matter how doe-eyed for Democracy they may claim to be, is interested in repeating.

Where do the Jedi fit into this? The beauty of having the New Empire enrolled in the Alliance rather than replacing it, is that the Jedi can now serve the Alliance itself rather than the Empire, and still accomplish the purposes for which they were devised, without compromising themselves politically. Certainly they'd have no shortage of work to do. Lawlessness and breakdowns of order would multiply exponentially during the transition process. Remnant groups and pirate fleets would mushroom up out of nowhere, and there would of course be the other galactic players (like the Hutts) still tooling around looking for trouble. The point being though that the Jedi would have to be divorced from the politics of any one specific political entity (especially the Empire). By placing them at the service of the Alliance itself, they can head off the majority of these threats and intervene when necessary against abuses of power from any source, without getting shoehorned into supporting the interests of one Alliance member over another. For this reason, the Jedi should be headquartered on neutral ground, Endor perhaps, or some other planet, as should what (minimal) functions the Alliance takes on (mostly coordinating organizations, similar to NATO). Coruscant is the Capital of the Empire. It cannot also be the Capital of the no-longer-Rebel Alliance.

What of the Empire itself? Frankly it stands only to benefit from being pruned of its more recalcitrant members and having a fresh administration applied. Part of what made Palpatine able to rule at all was that, incompetent as he might have been (his obsession with super-weapons for instance), he was miles more effective than the Republic he replaced, which had by the time he took over become a wholly useless tool of posturing bureaucrats and sycophantic politicos. The zenith of Rome's power came not during the Republic, but during the periods where the Empire was governed with a sure hand by competent Emperors who were not constantly putting down pretenders to the throne. In the short and medium term, at least, placing someone reasonable on the Imperial throne would do just that, and allow the Empire to enjoy the benefits of law and order, without the drawbacks of having a pathological lunatic administering it. Obviously in the long-term, some kind of legal system of succession would need to be established, either through liberalization or simply through codification. But it's plain to me that a society that allows an entire planet to become a single giant city, thus placing its populace entirely at the mercy of imported foodstuffs, has long-since abandoned all riparian values of "local autonomy", and is ready for galactic-scale government, whatever its form. Under a Leia (or even simply non-Palpatine) administration, enrolled in the Alliance and with the organs and levers of government turned to the role of ensuring its continued stability, the New Galactic Empire, though smaller than its predecessor, would do very, very well indeed.

frigidmagi · Post by **frigidmagi** » Fri Sep 11, 2009 2:11 pm

I would like to say Havoc that was very well thought out. However, I believe all of you are basing this on the wrong model. It is tempting to use Rome as the model for this, some of this may be from the (if I may be frank) cultural obsession we have with Rome, or the fact with a 1000 years of history there, it's easy to find some situation in the Roman state that fits what we're looking at. Either way.

In this case, I think we should be looking at the collapse of Alexander's Empire instead. I will attempt to make my case here.

The Old Republic was not a nation as we would understand the term. It was barely a government as we understand the term. Loyalty was not given to the Republic by the man on the street, it was given mainly to planetary and species entities. There does not seem to be unifying code of law, with some members practicing slavery and others outlawing it, weapon control laws being wildly different from planet to planet and so on. Also consider the fact that various member states seem to have their own armies and navies. Hell in the Phantom Menace one member of the Republic is blockading another! This would be like not only each state of our own Union having it's own armed forces but the Navy of Texas blockading Louisiana! Something not even the EU would allow.

In this case it makes more sense to think of the Old Republic as an empire, that is to say a regime that unifies several different cultures under a single political roof. For comparison the Persian Empire before Alexander

.

Under Persian rule member states were not required to change their laws, costumes or much of anything, they were only required to pay tribute and recognize the sovereign overpower of Persia and it's Empire. Hell in many cases the government didn't even change, all Persia did in Egypt for example was crown the Emperor as Pharaoh and then leave Eygpt the hell alone as long as the tribute kept flowing. There are records I was told by my Western Civ teacher that suggest that Eygpt at the time even conducted it's own foreign policy!

Under Palatines Empire, this clearly changed. It seems to me that Palatine was trying to construct a centralized totalitarian state and I openly question how many supported that idea outside of the elite groups he created to promote, protect and maintain said state. The fact that entire planets rebelled in the face of threat of annihilation says something as does the fact that we see no Mon Calamari or other members species of the Alliance on the Imperial side in even support positions (last I checked the Mon Calamari didn't face threat of enslavement until after they rebelled). So while Palatine was attempted the creation of a centralized state, he wasn't there yet at the time of his death.

We should also consider that Palatine ensured that not only was there no clear line of succession but no real way to effect a succession other then complete control of the armed forces. I would suggest that such a situation would be prime for a rise of a class of Diadochi from the Grand Admirals and Grand Moffs. As for the troops, Havoc I can say bluntly that history shows that you are over relying on their familial connections, many of the Jr troops and officers will be unmarried and most of the seniors will have their spouses and children nearby their posting. Futhermore the chance for increased power and wealth will tempt well... Everyone.

So I find it quite likely that a number of Admirals will gather enough ships and men to make a grab for control of at least their local area. Whether or not they can keep it is something else.

In this situation the central bureaucracy may indeed be open to making a deal with the Alliance and the Alliance may have to cut a deal when you consider the battles loses they suffered at Endor (It was at least most of their combat fleet there and they suffered damn heavy loses). Keep in mind though Luke and Leia for all their fame and power don't set policy for the Alliance, Mon Mothma, Admiral Ack Bar and others do. Many of them swore to fight to the death of the Empire. This is gonna be a problem.

As for reforming the Republic. I would agree that the Republic isn't a solution, it was the problem in the first place.

Cpl Kendall · Post by **Cpl Kendall** » Fri Sep 11, 2009 3:06 pm

Stofsk wrote:
-What does Luke do? Does he recreate the Jedi Order? If so, how will it be different to the Order from the Old Republic?

I don't have anything to add but for thoughts on the Jedi.

I would have Luke rebuild the order but as a neutral force (remember that Alien that petitioned him in a bar in the Zahn trilogy?), quartered on their own planet or installation that any member world or individual could approach for aid. Sort of an alternative to military action by the worlds of the Republic/Alliance/Empire or combination of them.

Limitations on their authority and actions would be arrived at by treaty between them and the powers in the galaxy.

I haven't fully fleshed this idea out yet, more of a nugget that's been lurking for a bit.

Let me know if your gonna run a game though, I'd like to give it a try.

frigidmagi · Post by **frigidmagi** » Fri Sep 11, 2009 3:07 pm

That seems a good idea to me Kendal.

Cpl Kendall · Post by **Cpl Kendall** » Fri Sep 11, 2009 3:13 pm

frigidmagi wrote:That seems a good idea to me Kendal.

I based the idea of some half-remembered history lesson, or maybe it was another fictional universe. I can't quite recall but it fits more of the description that Ben gave Luke in ANH (in my mind anyways).

Stofsk · Post by **Stofsk** » Fri Sep 11, 2009 6:29 pm

Politically, I think a restoration of the Senate would be one of the Alliance's ultimate goals. Now the office of Emperor would have separate powers, because the problem we see in the Prequels is that the two offices of Chancellor and Senate seem too mixed. I imagine that the Imperial Senate would be a house of review as well as legislative organisation, while the Emperor (or Empress) will hold executive, military and diplomatic power.

Palpatine's doctrine of rule by fear rested on wiping away the Senate and giving absolute power over to regional authorities like Grand Moffs and Moffs. Terror instruments like the Death Star would be the ultimate enforcement tool with a superlaser capable of penetrating even the 'thickest' of planetary defence shields.

By returning the Senate it allows member planets representation even if under the rule of an Imperial autocrat. BTW Havoc, for someone who doesn't read the EU it is not apparent that Palpatine has a hard-on for superweapons in general. The Death Star is different to all the other lame ass shit the EU inflicted us with, and it ties into the Tarkin Doctrine from ANH. It's the only super-weapon we see from the films as well. I appreciate your point, but it is really something that the EU created along with Wankatine and his Clones.

In general I like the ideas you and Frigid have come up with to flesh out the political aspects of the post-ROTJ plot development.

Cpl Kendall wrote:I don't have anything to add but for thoughts on the Jedi.

I would have Luke rebuild the order but as a neutral force (remember that Alien that petitioned him in a bar in the Zahn trilogy?), quartered on their own planet or installation that any member world or individual could approach for aid. Sort of an alternative to military action by the worlds of the Republic/Alliance/Empire or combination of them.

Limitations on their authority and actions would be arrived at by treaty between them and the powers in the galaxy.

I haven't fully fleshed this idea out yet, more of a nugget that's been lurking for a bit.

I provisionally agree that the Jedi seemed to be geared up as a kind of neutral force prior to the Prequels, but when the PT came out it became clear how ingrained the Jedi Order was to the function of the Republic.

The problem with making them completely neutral and without sanction is that these guys are basically demigods thanks to their Force powers. It doesn't much matter to Palpatine because he was a Sith Lord and he had purged the galaxy of the Jedi anyway, but the Republic needed the Jedi as extraordinary and super-powered agents (a Jedi could alternatively be a scout and spy, a diplomat and ambassador, a police officer of sorts and a bodyguard for a Republic official), while the Jedi existed or were allowed to exist because the Republic gave them legitimacy.

The old Jedi Order might be a little bit analogous to the Knights Templar in that when they got along well with the kings of Europe things were swell, but when that French King whose name escapes me at the moment wanted to get out of paying them back for money he owed them, shit quickly hit the fan. It's not quite analogous but I think Lucas intended for the Jedi to be similar to medieval Knights and Japanese Samurai. To use the Samurai as an analogy, you had the ones with masters who enjoyed good living, and you had the ones without a master, who were little better than bums on the street. (nobody liked Ronin because they were perceived as Samurai who had failed their masters and hadn't done their duty well)

I would think Luke would be keen to serve the political apparatus, especially if his sister became the next Imperial leader. Actually that strikes a thought for me, Palpatine was a Sith and Leia has force sensitivity (implied in ROTJ and maybe ESB), could we see the Empire become a Force-ocracy?

Let me know if your gonna run a game though, I'd like to give it a try.

I will let you know. At this point I am throwing around ideas. I don't know if I will run a game here or not, but if I do I will let you know. (Hotfoot's game has made me appreciate d20 again)

frigidmagi · Post by **frigidmagi** » Sat Sep 12, 2009 1:26 am

Palpatine was a Sith and Leia has force sensitivity (implied in ROTJ and maybe ESB), could we see the Empire become a Force-ocracy?

It's very possible. Noblity and divine right is usually founded on alot less. Still I'm not sure they would crown Leia right off the bat. Like I said she doesn't make policy for the Alliance. She's popular and visible and a great hero but as we saw in Return of the Jedi, she's taking orders from others.

Plus she's royalty from a destroyed planet and a scattered people. That's not much of a power base is it?

Although when I think of it, that might make her attractive to the Imperial bureaucracy as someone who wouldn't have the juice to force them to make any real changes. There's quiet a few of these guys who would want to keep doing things the old way I would think.

Stofsk · Post by **Stofsk** » Sat Sep 12, 2009 4:11 am

frigidmagi wrote:
Palpatine was a Sith and Leia has force sensitivity (implied in ROTJ and maybe ESB), could we see the Empire become a Force-ocracy?
It's very possible. Noblity and divine right is usually founded on alot less. Still I'm not sure they would crown Leia right off the bat. Like I said she doesn't make policy for the Alliance. She's popular and visible and a great hero but as we saw in Return of the Jedi, she's taking orders from others.

Leia is the leader of her cell in the Rebel Alliance, while Mon Mothma was the overall leader of the Alliance.

Plus she's royalty from a destroyed planet and a scattered people. That's not much of a power base is it?

On the other hand, it gives her the sympathy card to play. Don't forget, she was also an Imperial Senator as well, and I imagine that a lot of the former Senators would probably welcome her as the head of the executive considering they would know her over one of Palpatine's patsies or someone in the former Emperor's camp.

Although when I think of it, that might make her attractive to the Imperial bureaucracy as someone who wouldn't have the juice to force them to make any real changes. There's quiet a few of these guys who would want to keep doing things the old way I would think.

For this to work, a compromise would have to be reached with whoever could reasonably be the kingmaker in the GFFA. There are several options, a Grand Admiral in the Navy, one of the head administrators of the bureaucracy, perhaps one of the Grand Moffs.

Cpl Kendall · Post by **Cpl Kendall** » Sat Sep 12, 2009 6:49 am

I provisionally agree that the Jedi seemed to be geared up as a kind of neutral force prior to the Prequels, but when the PT came out it became clear how ingrained the Jedi Order was to the function of the Republic.

I reject your reality and substitute my own!

The problem with making them completely neutral and without sanction is that these guys are basically demigods thanks to their Force powers. It doesn't much matter to Palpatine because he was a Sith Lord and he had purged the galaxy of the Jedi anyway, but the Republic needed the Jedi as extraordinary and super-powered agents (a Jedi could alternatively be a scout and spy, a diplomat and ambassador, a police officer of sorts and a bodyguard for a Republic official), while the Jedi existed or were allowed to exist because the Republic gave them legitimacy.

Well, I sort of alluded to solutions to this in my "limited by treaty". We already know that individual Jedi can be overwhelmed by firepower and that their numbers are quite low, either by circumstance or that force sensitivity is rare. Treaty limitations could include the types of ships they can have, the numbers of Jedi, whether they can or cannot have Sepoy's etc.

Legitimacy is granted to them by virtue of being recognized as a neutral force. As long as they act within the confines of the arrangement with the Galactic Powers then nobody bothers them and vice versa.

I would think Luke would be keen to serve the political apparatus, especially if his sister became the next Imperial leader. Actually that strikes a thought for me, Palpatine was a Sith and Leia has force sensitivity (implied in ROTJ and maybe ESB), could we see the Empire become a Force-ocracy?

I don't see why it couldn't be a force-ocracy. I think it would need a clear procedure for establishing succession though.

Stofsk · Post by **Stofsk** » Sat Sep 12, 2009 9:05 am

Cpl Kendall wrote:Well, I sort of alluded to solutions to this in my "limited by treaty". We already know that individual Jedi can be overwhelmed by firepower and that their numbers are quite low, either by circumstance or that force sensitivity is rare. Treaty limitations could include the types of ships they can have, the numbers of Jedi, whether they can or cannot have Sepoy's etc.

Treaties wouldn't be the approach I'd take. I feel it's more along the lines of unwritten rules, or conventions, which the new Jedi under Skywalker's leadership voluntarily abide by, but are not constrained by. Ultimately, one sufficiently powerful Force user can upset the apple cart so while they can be overwhelmed by mass firepower that isn't really a realistic method of having lasting relations.

Legitimacy is granted to them by virtue of being recognized as a neutral force. As long as they act within the confines of the arrangement with the Galactic Powers then nobody bothers them and vice versa.

What kind of Galactic Powers would exist that would welcome the Jedi anyway? The Hutts wouldn't welcome them, the various criminal and corporate organisations would probably vary between hostile to indifferent. The Outer Rim Territories don't sound like a unified political entity, so individual mileage will certainly vary. The only issue is what the Imperial Senate will think of the Jedi.

I don't see why it couldn't be a force-ocracy. I think it would need a clear procedure for establishing succession though.

Certainly. I hate the word 'force-ocracy'. It sounds shit.

Perhaps non-Force sensitives would be the ultimate result, as the Jedi pull back and become a kind of Secret Service dedicated to protecting the Emperor's life as well as keeping an eye on events. I don't think Luke would go around and create a second Jedi Council after the last one fucked up so spectacularly.

I would also imagine that the absence of a Jedi Council and the Sith Order's demise with Palpatine and Vader's deaths would result in a galaxy full of potential force sensitives who exist without being detected or properly trained. The Jedi make sure that any force user found conforms to their morals, while the Sith on the other hand work to eradicate anyone or anything that could rise to challenge their supremacy. With both organisations absent, you're left with a scenario of rogue Force users running rampant and unchecked.

frigidmagi · Post by **frigidmagi** » Sat Sep 12, 2009 3:29 pm

The Jedi and the Sith are not and cannot be the only force using organizations out there. The galaxy is simply to vast for that and there have been to many dissatisfied Jedi and Sith who have crept off.

Leia is the leader of her cell in the Rebel Alliance, while Mon Mothma was the overall leader of the Alliance.

Yeah, Stofsk that's like being a platoon leader in the US forces. It's not a power base. Like I said Leia does not dictate or play a role in formulating policy.

So the question becomes how do you sell the guys who do?

Cpl Kendall · Post by **Cpl Kendall** » Sat Sep 12, 2009 7:58 pm

Is Leia actually the leader of her cell or just some sort of PR advisor/swing NCO?

Cause it sure looked like the General was in charge at Echo Base and I don't recall seeing her do a whole hell of a lot else.

Stofsk · Post by **Stofsk** » Sat Sep 12, 2009 8:00 pm

frigidmagi wrote:Yeah, Stofsk that's like being a platoon leader in the US forces. It's not a power base. Like I said Leia does not dictate or play a role in formulating policy.

How do you know that she doesn't dictate or play a role in policy making? Mon Mothma was just a Senator in the Imperial Senate, as was Bail Organa. So is Leia. The idea that Mon Mothma calls all the shots and Leia's just a minor player in the heirarchy isn't at all apparent in the films. Leia, being Bail Organa's adoptive daughter, would likely have succeeded him in his role in the Rebellion. Regardless, she's a major player in the Rebellion - she got the Death Star plans from Rebel agents, she's up there with the Rebellion leadership and knows Rebel secrets (like where their bases are hiding), and she also confers with military commanders like General Dodonna and General Rieekan.

I don't think we can dismiss Leia at all.

frigidmagi · Post by **frigidmagi** » Sun Sep 13, 2009 12:15 am

How do you know that she doesn't dictate or play a role in policy making? Mon Mothma was just a Senator in the Imperial Senate, as was Bail Organa. So is Leia. The idea that Mon Mothma calls all the shots and Leia's just a minor player in the heirarchy isn't at all apparent in the films. Leia, being Bail Organa's adoptive daughter, would likely have succeeded him in his role in the Rebellion. Regardless, she's a major player in the Rebellion - she got the Death Star plans from Rebel agents, she's up there with the Rebellion leadership and knows Rebel secrets (like where their bases are hiding), and she also confers with military commanders like General Dodonna and General Rieekan.

A: She is the one taking on a high profile dangerous mission, aka linking up with spies to get the plans. How often do policy makers do that? You don't send someone with the information and power to make policy to the front lines, if you do the bad guys torture said information out of her. As it was they got enough information to almost cripple the Alliance.

B: At no time do we see her dictating the movement of large forces. She does not plan the fleet attack on Endor. She does not control the base at Hoth. While she is clearly an officer, popular and well known, she is not the final authority or in charge. In New Hope she defers to the general running the base, she doesn't give orders. This surely isn't a reflection of her personality Leia is a confident, take charge kinda gal. So it must be a reflection of the fact that he outranks her.

C: Her Senatoral seat was during the days when it was at best a rubber stamp. I'll point out that Palatine had no troubles dissolving at the opening of A New Hope. She's what then? 20? 22? That's not enough time to really set up much power, and most of the power she inherited from Bail went up in smoke along with Aldarren.

D: We know for a fact that Mon Mothra was the one who got the alliance set up in the first place. Bail was the guy who got her money, supplies and blew smoke as a cover. Futhermore they flat say in Return of the Jedi that Mon outranks fucking everyone and that Ackbar is the leader of the fleet. That means they outrank Leia, who at no time is shown to have forces of her own.

E: It goes back to this. We see no large scale or even medium scale forces that owe primary loyalty to Leia. We know she joined up after the Rebel Alliance was set up. I see no way to read the movies as Leia being able to make decisions for the whole alliance. High ranking? Sure. Setting Policy? No.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying there's no way that Leia wouldn't get the crown. She's popular, well known for heroic action and as far as everyone else knows, she is the daughter of Bail Organic and royalty of Aldarran, a planet unfairly destroyed by the Tyrant Palatine. It makes her a perfect symbol of a changed Empire.

I'm just saying she's not the prime person you have sale on this. As far has I can tell from the film, if Ackbar and Mon say no, then the answer is no.

Stofsk · Post by **Stofsk** » Tue Sep 15, 2009 6:01 am

frigidmagi wrote:A: She is the one taking on a high profile dangerous mission, aka linking up with spies to get the plans. How often do policy makers do that? You don't send someone with the information and power to make policy to the front lines, if you do the bad guys torture said information out of her. As it was they got enough information to almost cripple the Alliance.

From Leia? No they didn't. She resisted the mind probe enough to impress Vader.

However, I take your point as far as it goes, that you don't typically send upper echelon leaders to the front lines. The thing is, she isn't really on the front lines - she uses her status as a Senator to go places no-one else can, in aid of the Rebellion. The plans were communicated to her ship after the grunt work had been done; pity for her that the transmission had been intercepted by the Empire.

B: At no time do we see her dictating the movement of large forces. She does not plan the fleet attack on Endor. She does not control the base at Hoth. While she is clearly an officer, popular and well known, she is not the final authority or in charge. In New Hope she defers to the general running the base, she doesn't give orders. This surely isn't a reflection of her personality Leia is a confident, take charge kinda gal. So it must be a reflection of the fact that he outranks her.

She doesn't need to be the final authority in charge, the Rebellion is a guerrilla force with countless cells; Leia is the leader of hers.

One thing you're wrong about is the bit about Hoth. General Rieekan commands the troops, but it is clear that Leia has a leadership role at Echo Base - she gives the Rogue Squadron pilots a pep talk and mission briefing, and she does confer with Rieekan about courses of action to take.

C: Her Senatoral seat was during the days when it was at best a rubber stamp. I'll point out that Palatine had no troubles dissolving at the opening of A New Hope. She's what then? 20? 22? That's not enough time to really set up much power, and most of the power she inherited from Bail went up in smoke along with Aldarren.

The Senate wasn't a rubber stamp, otherwise both General Tagge and Commander Praaji wouldn't have expressed concern about the Senate becoming embroiled in the conflict on the side of the Rebellion. Commander Praaji tells Vader "Holding her is dangerous. If word of this gets out, it could generate sympathy for the Rebellion in the senate." At which point Vader cuts him off and tells him he'll handle it through subterfuge (fooling the Senate into believing the Tantive IV was destroyed and all onboard were killed, implying that the Star Destroyer had no role in it as well).

Later in the film General Tagge expresses concern that no matter how powerful the Death Star is, they remain vulnerable as the Rebels are too well equipped, and that sympathy for their cause is increasing in the Senate. It's at that point we're told by Tarkin that the Senate has been dissolved by the Emperor, and I would guess that it's more likely due to increasing hostility and rebel sympathy that Palpatine saw no reason to have it around. It's not at all implied that the Senate was a rubber stamp, quite the opposite in fact: it seems like it was more trouble to the Emperor than it was worth.

D: We know for a fact that Mon Mothra was the one who got the alliance set up in the first place. Bail was the guy who got her money, supplies and blew smoke as a cover. Futhermore they flat say in Return of the Jedi that Mon outranks fucking everyone and that Ackbar is the leader of the fleet. That means they outrank Leia, who at no time is shown to have forces of her own.

Mon Mothma and Leia aren't military leaders, so why would they be in command of any forces?

Admiral Ackbar lead the Rebel Fleet at Endor, General Rieekan commanded the troops and base personnel at Echo Base, and ditto for General Dodonna at Yavin Base. They're military officers. Leia and Mon Mothma are not. Both of them are (or were) Senators, as was Bail Organa, as were any number of Rebel sympathisers and supporters. While Mon Mothma was revealed in ROTJ it is implied that the entire Rebellion was present for Endor, while in the previous two films the Rebels we see were part of Leia's cell.

I'm positive that there's a quote from the ROTJ novelisation that more or less states that. Regardless, Mon Mothma's absence in the previous two films only reinforces my point that Leia was the political leader of that particular cell. So yes, Mon Mothma outranks her but by how much? Yavin Base and Leia's cell was one of the major cells in the Alliance.

E: It goes back to this. We see no large scale or even medium scale forces that owe primary loyalty to Leia. We know she joined up after the Rebel Alliance was set up. I see no way to read the movies as Leia being able to make decisions for the whole alliance. High ranking? Sure. Setting Policy? No.

I dispute that there were no forces that owed primary loyalty to Leia. Why was she the one handing out medals to Luke and Han? Who hands out medals in the real world? Everyone in that chamber was a part of Yavin Base and likely Echo Base as well. Note that the fleet at the end of Empire was also what was at Echo Base comprised of. That's a lot of people and ships, and no other civilian leader other than Leia - until RotJ comes out and we get introduced to Mon Mothma.

We might be arguing about nothing that can be resolved though. I mean, if you're talking about setting policy, we don't ever see in the films the Rebel leadership discuss policy. The most we come across is the mission briefings that are given, but that's not really the same thing.

It seems to me that Mon Mothma gets a free pass and Leia has to be rationalised, but why? For the first two films we don't see any civilian leader of the Rebellion other than Princess Leia. Is she young? Certainly, but in Star Wars that means nothing. She was an Imperial Senator. Did she more or less take over after Bail Organa was atomised along with the billions of others on Alderaan? Yes. I'm sure you can look through history and see young monarchs take control after their fathers have been assassinated. Some of them even addressed their troops on the eve of battle and were there on the field.

Mon Mothma may not have done any leg work, but she's an old woman. Leia's young and able. That doesn't mean she isn't allowed to set policy.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying there's no way that Leia wouldn't get the crown. She's popular, well known for heroic action and as far as everyone else knows, she is the daughter of Bail Organic and royalty of Aldarran, a planet unfairly destroyed by the Tyrant Palatine. It makes her a perfect symbol of a changed Empire.

I'm just saying she's not the prime person you have sale on this. As far has I can tell from the film, if Ackbar and Mon say no, then the answer is no.

I can agree with what you're saying here. Mon Mothma might be a more suitable candidate than Leia given her experience, however she might not be receptive to the idea of a compromise solution to the conflict.

Part of me feels that it was a mistake for Lucas to write that Leia and Luke were siblings. If we keep RotJ in the picture then it has to be, but I always wonder what might have been if Lucas and Kurtz hadn't had their falling out after Empire. I wonder if they'd continue their collaboration for Jedi whether we'd see a totally different outcome. (Lucas certainly stated on numerous occasions that the original plan was a 9 episode arc, and it's only been recent history for him to go against that and claim it was always going to be a 6 part arc and ultimately about Anakin Skywalker's fall and redemption)

frigidmagi · Post by **frigidmagi** » Tue Sep 15, 2009 10:39 pm

From Leia? No they didn't. She resisted the mind probe enough to impress Vader.

"You would prefer a target? A MILITARY target? Then name the system!"

Huh, yes they did information out of her.

She doesn't need to be the final authority in charge, the Rebellion is a guerrilla force with countless cells; Leia is the leader of hers.

One thing you're wrong about is the bit about Hoth. General Rieekan commands the troops, but it is clear that Leia has a leadership role at Echo Base - she gives the Rogue Squadron pilots a pep talk and mission briefing, and she does confer with Rieekan about courses of action to take.

All of which proves she is an officer. Not a policy maker. How many Colonels set policy? 1 star generals? Here she is one officer out of many.

And the pep talk and mission breifing? Do you think the base commander of Camp Pendleton came out and gave my unit a pep talk and a briefing before I went to Iraq?

The Senate wasn't a rubber stamp, otherwise both General Tagge and Commander Praaji wouldn't have expressed concern about the Senate becoming embroiled in the conflict on the side of the Rebellion. Commander Praaji tells Vader "Holding her is dangerous. If word of this gets out, it could generate sympathy for the Rebellion in the senate." At which point Vader cuts him off and tells him he'll handle it through subterfuge (fooling the Senate into believing the Tantive IV was destroyed and all onboard were killed, implying that the Star Destroyer had no role in it as well).

Good Points. I'll concede on the Senate, however I would like to point out that Palatine still had no trouble dissolving them.

Admiral Ackbar lead the Rebel Fleet at Endor, General Rieekan commanded the troops and base personnel at Echo Base, and ditto for General Dodonna at Yavin Base. They're military officers. Leia and Mon Mothma are not.

For someone who's not a military officer she does a hell of a lot of military work. The Alliance is primarily a military organization in the movies. It seems to me that it would be best to regard Mon Mothma and Leia as military officers.

I'm positive that there's a quote from the ROTJ novelisation that more or less states that. Regardless, Mon Mothma's absence in the previous two films only reinforces my point that Leia was the political leader of that particular cell. So yes, Mon Mothma outranks her but by how much? Yavin Base and Leia's cell was one of the major cells in the Alliance.

Honest question here, I thought movie novels counted as part of the EU? Are we using movie novels then?

I dispute that there were no forces that owed primary loyalty to Leia. Why was she the one handing out medals to Luke and Han?

Why not? I mean she was the one primarily responsible for getting them there right? No Leia, no Luke and Han right?

Who hands out medals in the real world?

Mainly officers. The President does hand out medals but he doesn't hand out every or even the majority of medals. You'll usually get them from a high ranking officer or your unit CO. Course Luke and Hand don't have a unit. Also it may be that Senators can hand out medals as well. They can't in the US, or at least I don't believe they can, but the Republic is not the US. Last I checked we've never elected a 14 year old genius to be queen for example (not that she did a bad job, all things considered she did pretty good I think).

We might be arguing about nothing that can be resolved though. I mean, if you're talking about setting policy, we don't ever see in the films the Rebel leadership discuss policy. The most we come across is the mission briefings that are given, but that's not really the same thing.

You might have a point there. In real life the guys who set policy (The President, the Prime Minster, Security/Minister of Defense and what have you) don't do front line briefings.

In my view we see no evidence that Leia set policy or dictated operational goals for the Rebel Alliance. Since she is at the center of the movies, it would make more sense in my view to take it to mean that she doesn't.

I can agree with what you're saying here. Mon Mothma might be a more suitable candidate than Leia given her experience, however she might not be receptive to the idea of a compromise solution to the conflict.

You misunderstand. I'm not arguing that Mon Mothma would be better to take the crown. First off I don't think the bureaucrats would want to give it to her. She likely knows where to many bodies are buried and has to many secret allies for them to want her in charge. Secondly I don't think she would want to be an Empress, not with every bit I've read about her wanting to kill the Empire and bring back the Republic. Mothma seems to be fighting to reset things back to how they were in the Good Old Days (at least Good Old Days in her eyes).

I'm saying that Mothma and Ackbar are the representatives on who you got to really sale on the deal. If they say no, even if Leia says yes, all you have is a continued war with a new person on the throne and the Alliance calling said person a traitor. My personal opinion is just from her popularity and reputation a part of the Alliance would either just go home or switch sides. But the greater part would fight against Empress Leia, unless you sold Mothma and Ackbar on it.

I'm also pretty sure that if Mothma and Ackbar say no, Leia won't do it. There's another problem right there.

Part of me feels that it was a mistake for Lucas to write that Leia and Luke were siblings. If we keep RotJ in the picture then it has to be, but I always wonder what might have been if Lucas and Kurtz hadn't had their falling out after Empire. I wonder if they'd continue their collaboration for Jedi whether we'd see a totally different outcome. (Lucas certainly stated on numerous occasions that the original plan was a 9 episode arc, and it's only been recent history for him to go against that and claim it was always going to be a 6 part arc and ultimately about Anakin Skywalker's fall and redemption)

I can see what you're saying, but wouldn't it be easier at this point to just ditch the whole thing and go out on y/our own?

Stofsk · Post by **Stofsk** » Wed Sep 16, 2009 6:38 am

frigidmagi wrote:
From Leia? No they didn't. She resisted the mind probe enough to impress Vader.
"You would prefer a target? A MILITARY target? Then name the system!"

Huh, yes they did information out of her.

Oh come on. She was throwing them disinformation. Dantooine had long been abandoned (and she would have known that too).

All of which proves she is an officer. Not a policy maker. How many Colonels set policy? 1 star generals? Here she is one officer out of many.

And the pep talk and mission breifing? Do you think the base commander of Camp Pendleton came out and gave my unit a pep talk and a briefing before I went to Iraq?

Uh... I don't know?

She's still not an officer though, because she isn't given a rank. :)

Good Points. I'll concede on the Senate, however I would like to point out that Palatine still had no trouble dissolving them.

That's because he is the Emperor. He has absolute authority.

For someone who's not a military officer she does a hell of a lot of military work. The Alliance is primarily a military organization in the movies. It seems to me that it would be best to regard Mon Mothma and Leia as military officers.

They don't wear the uniforms or hold ranks, so I'm inclined to view them both as civilians who have political leadership of the Rebellion. I would argue that the Rebels aren't just a military force, there is a significant hearts and minds component to any guerrilla movement as well as irregular units.

Honest question here, I thought movie novels counted as part of the EU? Are we using movie novels then?

I've long given up attempting to make sense of Lucasfilm's canon policy. It's confusing and ultimately pointless. That said, I've always held the novelisations as being higher on the hierarchy than say Kevin J Anderson's shit (which would be on the bottom of the pile, along with the SW Holiday Special which i've mercifully avoided seeing).

Who hands out medals in the real world?
Mainly officers. The President does hand out medals but he doesn't hand out every or even the majority of medals. You'll usually get them from a high ranking officer or your unit CO. Course Luke and Hand don't have a unit. Also it may be that Senators can hand out medals as well. They can't in the US, or at least I don't believe they can, but the Republic is not the US. Last I checked we've never elected a 14 year old genius to be queen for example (not that she did a bad job, all things considered she did pretty good I think).

Ah. Well, you're right, the Republic/Empire/Rebel Alliance etc exist in their own universe, not ours.

You might have a point there. In real life the guys who set policy (The President, the Prime Minster, Security/Minister of Defense and what have you) don't do front line briefings.

In my view we see no evidence that Leia set policy or dictated operational goals for the Rebel Alliance. Since she is at the center of the movies, it would make more sense in my view to take it to mean that she doesn't.

I would take the position that just because we don't see it doesn't mean she doesn't - absence of evidence isn't evidence of absence.

You misunderstand. I'm not arguing that Mon Mothma would be better to take the crown. First off I don't think the bureaucrats would want to give it to her. She likely knows where to many bodies are buried and has to many secret allies for them to want her in charge. Secondly I don't think she would want to be an Empress, not with every bit I've read about her wanting to kill the Empire and bring back the Republic. Mothma seems to be fighting to reset things back to how they were in the Good Old Days (at least Good Old Days in her eyes).

Agreed.

I'm saying that Mothma and Ackbar are the representatives on who you got to really sale on the deal. If they say no, even if Leia says yes, all you have is a continued war with a new person on the throne and the Alliance calling said person a traitor. My personal opinion is just from her popularity and reputation a part of the Alliance would either just go home or switch sides. But the greater part would fight against Empress Leia, unless you sold Mothma and Ackbar on it.

I'm also pretty sure that if Mothma and Ackbar say no, Leia won't do it. There's another problem right there.

Well... why would Ackbar be someone who sets policy for the Rebellion? Ultimately, he's just a military officer, albeit highly ranked. He might set military strategy for the Rebel Fleet, but not policies of the kind I think you're talking about.

I think you're right that ultimately, for a compromise solution to be worked out, it would have to have approval from people like Mon Mothma and Leia, as well as the senior military leadership.

One thing that always bothered me about the EU is how Lando's character gets screwed over. His backstory was, at least from the films, a bit nebulous and hinting at being a scoundrel. But when we see him in Empire he's running Cloud City and has become an effective administrator. When we see him in Jedi he's given the Generalship and put in charge of the starfighter wing of the Rebel Fleet.

Then the EU gets its claws into it and he turns into this sort of... travelling salesman full of get-rich-quick schemes. Lame.

I can see what you're saying, but wouldn't it be easier at this point to just ditch the whole thing and go out on y/our own?

Honestly, for all of Jedi's flaws, it's still a pretty good movie. I'd put it above the Prequels any day of the week. (Sith is about the only Prequel film that comes close to OT quality. I'm not a fan of the Prequels, 1 film out of 3 is a bad hit-and-miss ratio) I'm inclined to keep it for the purposes I set out in the OP.

frigidmagi · Post by **frigidmagi** » Wed Sep 16, 2009 7:28 pm

She's still not an officer though, because she isn't given a rank. :)

Neither is Luke or Han, they still led units of men and women into combat and can toss around orders to pretty much everyone. They're officers man, it's the easiest explanation.

That's because he is the Emperor. He has absolute authority.

Authority and power aren't always the same thing. Things don't quite work that way. If the Senate had enough of a power base no matter who has the authority, actually disbanding them and shutting them down would have been difficult.

They don't wear the uniforms or hold ranks, so I'm inclined to view them both as civilians who have political leadership of the Rebellion. I would argue that the Rebels aren't just a military force, there is a significant hearts and minds component to any guerrilla movement as well as irregular units.

Again, none of the main characters wear uniforms and yet they all seem to hold military authority and power. Given the irregular nature of the Rebel Alliance I would assume that the lack of a uniform doesn't mean much.

I've long given up attempting to make sense of Lucasfilm's canon policy. It's confusing and ultimately pointless. That said, I've always held the novelisations as being higher on the hierarchy than say Kevin J Anderson's shit (which would be on the bottom of the pile, along with the SW Holiday Special which i've mercifully avoided seeing).

That's fair. So what are we using for this discussion then?

I would take the position that just because we don't see it doesn't mean she doesn't - absence of evidence isn't evidence of absence.

While that's true, we can't use that to determine a characters powers or abilities. Using that line of thought there's no reason not to declare for example that Batman isn't immortal, after all we've never seen him not come back from death right? In a situation such as this, it is better to use parsimony and occam's razor. Leia is a main character in 3 films. She has a high amount of screen time. She is never shown or hinted at being able to dictate policy for the Alliance. Logically speaking the best conclusion is that she does not set policy for the Alliance.

Well... why would Ackbar be someone who sets policy for the Rebellion? Ultimately, he's just a military officer, albeit highly ranked. He might set military strategy for the Rebel Fleet, but not policies of the kind I think you're talking about.

He's also the representative of a planet and a species. Not to mention the Mon Calamari ships pretty owe more loyalty to him then a pair of humans.

ne thing that always bothered me about the EU is how Lando's character gets screwed over. His backstory was, at least from the films, a bit nebulous and hinting at being a scoundrel. But when we see him in Empire he's running Cloud City and has become an effective administrator. When we see him in Jedi he's given the Generalship and put in charge of the starfighter wing of the Rebel Fleet.

Then the EU gets its claws into it and he turns into this sort of... travelling salesman full of get-rich-quick schemes. Lame.

That is pretty lame. He should get his own planet at the very least or something.

Stofsk · Post by **Stofsk** » Wed Sep 16, 2009 11:21 pm

frigidmagi wrote:
She's still not an officer though, because she isn't given a rank. :)
Neither is Luke or Han, they still led units of men and women into combat and can toss around orders to pretty much everyone. They're officers man, it's the easiest explanation.

Luke actually is given a commission by the Rebel Alliance after Yavin, by the time of Empire he's been promoted to Commander and leads his own squadron (Rogue Squadron).

Han is referred to as Captain Solo, and in Jedi he's given the rank of General and is put in charge of the Endor commandoes.

Authority and power aren't always the same thing. Things don't quite work that way. If the Senate had enough of a power base no matter who has the authority, actually disbanding them and shutting them down would have been difficult.

Well, if we take the prequels into consideration, there was nearly two decades between Sith and New Hope, and in that time the Senate remained in place. It was only after the Death Star was finally completed that the Emperor moved against the Senate.

I figure that the Senate still had some influence, for a start each senator represented worlds and sectors and if they became hostile it would only strengthen and embolden the Rebellion (as Bail Organa and Mon Mothma and others showed). Given the nature of the Death Star and its intended role, Palpatine could finally sweep away the Senate with the Death Star under his control.

The Senate's power lied in the hundreds and thousands of sectors, systems and planets they represented. When news of the Senate being dissolved was revealed by Tarkin to the assembled staff in the Death Star conference room, General Tagge was sceptical: "That's impossible! How will the Empire maintain control without the bureaucracy?" To which Tarkin replied that regional governors (Moffs and Grand Moffs) would have direct control over their territories, and the Death Star will be the force that keeps everyone in line through fear.

Again, none of the main characters wear uniforms and yet they all seem to hold military authority and power. Given the irregular nature of the Rebel Alliance I would assume that the lack of a uniform doesn't mean much.

Well when Luke flies in his X-wing and snowspeeder both times he wears the flight suit (which is basically a uniform). Lando wears a uniform as well when he flies the Falcon.

Solo doesn't, but he would be the more irregular member of the Alliance. While a guerrilla force, the Alliance has regular elements and irregular elements.

Now that I think about it Leia seems to wear a uniform in Hoth and in Jedi when she takes part in the commando operation. But she's never referred to as anything other than Princess.

That's fair. So what are we using for this discussion then?

Primarily the movies. I also stipulated in the OP that if there are any examples of the EU which are good then they can be included. Generally the EU is shit, but if there are any gems in there there's no reason to exclude them.

While that's true, we can't use that to determine a characters powers or abilities. Using that line of thought there's no reason not to declare for example that Batman isn't immortal, after all we've never seen him not come back from death right? In a situation such as this, it is better to use parsimony and occam's razor. Leia is a main character in 3 films. She has a high amount of screen time. She is never shown or hinted at being able to dictate policy for the Alliance. Logically speaking the best conclusion is that she does not set policy for the Alliance.

Alright. So what would you do with her? Effectively we're resetting the post-ROTJ EU for our own purposes, what do you think would make sense for her character?

-She may not set policy, but she is still a high-ranking member of the Alliance. She's at least the leader of her cell.
-She's a Senator at the start of New Hope, so political leadership is something she's had experience in (but perhaps not a great deal of experience, considering her young age).
-Before it was revealed she is Luke's brother, Yoda said "There is another" to Ben's ghost in Empire. Luke suggests that she has a similar affinity to the Force as he does, because it runs in the family. This leaves the possibility open that she can be trained to be a Jedi.

He's also the representative of a planet and a species. Not to mention the Mon Calamari ships pretty owe more loyalty to him then a pair of humans.

Ok. I just remembered the line from the Jedi novelisation that said something like the Mon Cal were the spirit of the Rebellion.

That is pretty lame. He should get his own planet at the very least or something.

I wouldn't be against Lando becoming a big player in the political scheme of things. He has experience as an administrator, he's a bit of scoundrel (perfect politician) and he's a war hero.

Stofsk · Post by **Stofsk** » Mon Sep 21, 2009 10:45 pm

Bump. Are people still interested in this thread?

frigidmagi · Post by **frigidmagi** » Tue Sep 22, 2009 12:43 am

You know I completely forgot I hadn't posted a reply to that? I'm gonna need a day or two though. Homework and school.

Gandalf · Post by **Gandalf** » Tue Sep 22, 2009 8:41 am

I think it'd be interesting for people to at one time be afraid of Jedi, but also be enthusiastic about using them as a fix-all solution. Whether it's mediating disputes, chasing tax cheats or "special interrogation".

It's a concept similar to the Psi-Corps like in B5. Sometimes they're used for good, and sometimes the government tries to use them for sheer expediency and secrecy. Being sent to the Jedi Order is mandatory if you're a force sensitive Republic citizen. While they could have been founded with Luke's noble intentions following the example of Obi Wan and Yoda, it soon becomes something of a government agency.

They're my thoughts.

frigidmagi · Post by **frigidmagi** » Sat Sep 26, 2009 3:55 am

Luke actually is given a commission by the Rebel Alliance after Yavin, by the time of Empire he's been promoted to Commander and leads his own squadron (Rogue Squadron).

Han is referred to as Captain Solo, and in Jedi he's given the rank of General and is put in charge of the Endor commandoes.

And Leia has authority, military authority enough to countermand and at times order both of them. If it was solely political authority your average officer would ignore them. Much like I would ignore a Senator who tried to give me orders as to what I was suppose to do in a combat zone. A Senator isn't part of the chain of command and rightfully so. Not only does that open a firmly locked door to madness, most Senators in just about any system don't know their ass from a hole in the ground when it comes to military operations. I see no reason why not to assume the easiest explanation on Leia's status is that she holds a military rank in the Rebellion. This doesn't bar her from a Political rank, the Romans for one example combined the two all the time. In fact a strict division between the two is a rather modern Western invention.

Well, if we take the prequels into consideration, there was nearly two decades between Sith and New Hope, and in that time the Senate remained in place. It was only after the Death Star was finally completed that the Emperor moved against the Senate.

I figure that the Senate still had some influence, for a start each senator represented worlds and sectors and if they became hostile it would only strengthen and embolden the Rebellion (as Bail Organa and Mon Mothma and others showed). Given the nature of the Death Star and its intended role, Palpatine could finally sweep away the Senate with the Death Star under his control

Agreed.

The Senate's power lied in the hundreds and thousands of sectors, systems and planets they represented. When news of the Senate being dissolved was revealed by Tarkin to the assembled staff in the Death Star conference room, General Tagge was sceptical: "That's impossible! How will the Empire maintain control without the bureaucracy?" To which Tarkin replied that regional governors (Moffs and Grand Moffs) would have direct control over their territories, and the Death Star will be the force that keeps everyone in line through fear.

Doesn't that however, effectively suggest that the Senate's power has been neutralized via the parallel system of Moffs and Grand Moffs? As such Palatine feels he has no reason to fear the Senators and they aren't worth the bother anymore.

Well when Luke flies in his X-wing and snowspeeder both times he wears the flight suit (which is basically a uniform). Lando wears a uniform as well when he flies the Falcon.

And when out of his fighter even when on duty wears whatever he damn well feels like. That makes the flight suit more a piece of the fighters equipment then a uniform. I mean even George Fucking Dubya Bush wore a flight uniform. Didn't make him a member of the United States Navy.

Now that I think about it Leia seems to wear a uniform in Hoth and in Jedi when she takes part in the commando operation. But she's never referred to as anything other than Princess.

A snow bunny suit is not a bloody uniform! I should point out in most monarchies (as far I know the English are different, we would have to ask an Englishman though) royal rank supersedes military rank, so you refer to a person by that rank. For example Gustaf II Adolf, King of Sweden led his forces in the 30 year war personally. If someone was speaking to him, they didn't refer to him by his military rank but his royal rank. So it wasn't General Gustaf, but Your Majesty, or King.

Primarily the movies. I also stipulated in the OP that if there are any examples of the EU which are good then they can be included. Generally the EU is shit, but if there are any gems in there there's no reason to exclude them.

So case by case then? I can live with that.

Alright. So what would you do with her? Effectively we're resetting the post-ROTJ EU for our own purposes, what do you think would make sense for her character?

-She may not set policy, but she is still a high-ranking member of the Alliance. She's at least the leader of her cell.
-She's a Senator at the start of New Hope, so political leadership is something she's had experience in (but perhaps not a great deal of experience, considering her young age).
-Before it was revealed she is Luke's brother, Yoda said "There is another" to Ben's ghost in Empire. Luke suggests that she has a similar affinity to the Force as he does, because it runs in the family. This leaves the possibility open that she can be trained to be a Jedi.

If you're asking what I would do, I would have started all the way back at Phantom Menace and rebuilt from there, but then by the time I was done it's unlikely you would recogize it.

As for Leia, I agree she makes a good candidate for the central bureaucracy, what I question is whether the Alliance, fresh from their greatest victory ever, watching the Empire splinter up, full of fanatics would be interested in a deal? I don't think they can conquer the central worlds but do they know that?

Also would she take the crown? I'm honestly unsure of that. I see no signs of the kind of ambition it would require for that, nor do I think Han and Luke would encourage her to do so. On the flip side she's a princess and has been raised as such, that's not gonna make her a democracy now type person. I'm also wondering if Ackbar and Mon Mothma would think.

To be honest I think the big deal maker would be Lando here. It's something he's experienced in and he has no great ideological tie with the Rebellion or the Empire. Motivated by personal ambition, an honest desire for peace, order and a bit of justice here and there, he might be the guy who steps forward and hammers out a deal. He can't be emperor, don't think I'm suggesting that! But he might be able to talk everyone around into a deal that gets enough of what everyone wants to swallow it.

Say a Constitutional Monarchy, with a Prime Minister? Leia's abilities in the force, have to be trained enough so she can be useful. Once that's done Luke is gonna do alot of wandering to find other Force users to recruit for the New Jedi. He won't have time for a Temple. He'll be training his boys and girls on the move and making alliances. He also doesn't want to stand still because all sorts of Dark Jedi, Sith wanna-bes and Hands are looking for the Man Who Killed the Emperor (sure it was Vader, we know that, but how many will actually believe it? Plus it might be more... convenient for everyone to believe Luke killed them both single handed, that's what alot are gonna think anyways) in order to kill him and make a name for themselves or get revenge, or whatever, or all at once.

Meanwhile I think a good chunk of the Grand Moffs and Sector fleet Admirals will say no and make their own deals. Long story short interesting times and a divided galaxy. Who the fuck needs the damn Vong to tell a good story now?

Stofsk · Post by **Stofsk** » Wed Sep 30, 2009 3:05 am

frigidmagi wrote:
Luke actually is given a commission by the Rebel Alliance after Yavin, by the time of Empire he's been promoted to Commander and leads his own squadron (Rogue Squadron).

Han is referred to as Captain Solo, and in Jedi he's given the rank of General and is put in charge of the Endor commandoes.
And Leia has authority, military authority enough to countermand and at times order both of them. If it was solely political authority your average officer would ignore them. Much like I would ignore a Senator who tried to give me orders as to what I was suppose to do in a combat zone. A Senator isn't part of the chain of command and rightfully so. Not only does that open a firmly locked door to madness, most Senators in just about any system don't know their ass from a hole in the ground when it comes to military operations. I see no reason why not to assume the easiest explanation on Leia's status is that she holds a military rank in the Rebellion. This doesn't bar her from a Political rank, the Romans for one example combined the two all the time. In fact a strict division between the two is a rather modern Western invention.

You're right, the separation of powers is a relatively recent (historically speaking) Western invention.

The Senate's power lied in the hundreds and thousands of sectors, systems and planets they represented. When news of the Senate being dissolved was revealed by Tarkin to the assembled staff in the Death Star conference room, General Tagge was sceptical: "That's impossible! How will the Empire maintain control without the bureaucracy?" To which Tarkin replied that regional governors (Moffs and Grand Moffs) would have direct control over their territories, and the Death Star will be the force that keeps everyone in line through fear.
Doesn't that however, effectively suggest that the Senate's power has been neutralized via the parallel system of Moffs and Grand Moffs? As such Palatine feels he has no reason to fear the Senators and they aren't worth the bother anymore.

Or rather, Palpatine didn't like the Senate and felt that sympathy for the rebellion was gathering in it, so took steps to dissolve it and institute his decentralisation policy of hand-picked appointed Moffs and Grand Moffs complete with a Death Star to enforce his will.

The Senate's power is the people, so Palpatine's aim was to neutralise it's political power through the use of fear (autocratic rule devolved to hand picked regional governors, and the 'technological terror' of the Death Star), but that doesn't mean the Senate was powerless.

And when out of his fighter even when on duty wears whatever he damn well feels like.

I can only think of the award ceremony scene at the end of ANH as the only example of Luke wearing what appears to be civvie clothing after joining the Rebellion. Luke wore a utilitarian outfit in ESB which had no Rebellion rank or insignia visible on it, but nevertheless looks like a uniform to me:

That makes the flight suit more a piece of the fighters equipment then a uniform. I mean even George Fucking Dubya Bush wore a flight uniform. Didn't make him a member of the United States Navy.

Um... so what? The actors in Top Gun wore Navy uniforms and flight suits but last I heard Tom Cruise isn't a Naval aviator with the callsign Maverick in real life.

That doesn't address the point that a flight suit is a piece of military uniform, which Luke wears in ANH and ESB.

Now that I think about it Leia seems to wear a uniform in Hoth and in Jedi when she takes part in the commando operation. But she's never referred to as anything other than Princess.
A snow bunny suit is not a bloody uniform!

What are you talking about? Everyone in Echo Base was wearing that 'snow bunny' suit.

I should point out in most monarchies (as far I know the English are different, we would have to ask an Englishman though) royal rank supersedes military rank, so you refer to a person by that rank. For example Gustaf II Adolf, King of Sweden led his forces in the 30 year war personally. If someone was speaking to him, they didn't refer to him by his military rank but his royal rank. So it wasn't General Gustaf, but Your Majesty, or King.

Sounds reasonable.

Primarily the movies. I also stipulated in the OP that if there are any examples of the EU which are good then they can be included. Generally the EU is shit, but if there are any gems in there there's no reason to exclude them.
So case by case then? I can live with that.

I also reserve the right to pick and choose what to keep and what to toss. I'm a big fan of Thrawn and Zahn's writing is usually the only EU examples I like (the Han Solo books are also pretty good, and I'm trying to get through the X-wing novels detailing Wraith Squadron. The Rogue Squadron novels by Stackpole aren't the best though)

If you're asking what I would do, I would have started all the way back at Phantom Menace and rebuilt from there, but then by the time I was done it's unlikely you would recogize it.

Out of curiosity, what would you change?

As for Leia, I agree she makes a good candidate for the central bureaucracy, what I question is whether the Alliance, fresh from their greatest victory ever, watching the Empire splinter up, full of fanatics would be interested in a deal? I don't think they can conquer the central worlds but do they know that?

I would say that the Battle of Endor taxed the Rebellion considerably. They lost a lot of their big capships which is a non-trivial thing to lose. The second Death Star was destroyed and so was the Executor and a couple other ISDs, but the Rebel fleet wouldn't have come out of that scrap anything other than black and blue and bleeding.

It might be that the Rebels would have no choice but to reach a compromise with a particular faction in the Empire. That won't stop diehard fanatics from Rebelling against the Rebels.

Also would she take the crown? I'm honestly unsure of that. I see no signs of the kind of ambition it would require for that, nor do I think Han and Luke would encourage her to do so. On the flip side she's a princess and has been raised as such, that's not gonna make her a democracy now type person. I'm also wondering if Ackbar and Mon Mothma would think.

Going movies only, she's a Senator as well as a Princess, so I wouldn't say she's not pro-democracy (assuming Senators are democratically-elected). The novelisation refers to the royal rank being an honorific though, since Alderaan had been democratic for awhile. That said, the original plan for RotJ was for Leia to be crowned Queen of her people (what remained of them), and she also wasn't supposed to be Luke's long-lost twin sister (which Lucas only added to resolve the love triangle between the three principle characters)

To be honest I think the big deal maker would be Lando here. It's something he's experienced in and he has no great ideological tie with the Rebellion or the Empire. Motivated by personal ambition, an honest desire for peace, order and a bit of justice here and there, he might be the guy who steps forward and hammers out a deal. He can't be emperor, don't think I'm suggesting that! But he might be able to talk everyone around into a deal that gets enough of what everyone wants to swallow it.

Lando being the guy who hammers out a deal is probably the best idea I've heard. He'd have no love for the Empire, but he would understand political compromises and he's charismatic enough to put a deal on the table.

Say a Constitutional Monarchy, with a Prime Minister?

I'd think restoring the Senate, giving it back its legislative powers, but keeping the role of Emperor to ensure strong leadership is the working compromise.

Meanwhile I think a good chunk of the Grand Moffs and Sector fleet Admirals will say no and make their own deals. Long story short interesting times and a divided galaxy. Who the fuck needs the damn Vong to tell a good story now?

The idea is that after Endor, the Empire will splinter into different factions who make a claim to the throne. These factions would include the leftovers from the Palpatine and Tarkin camps, the bureaucracy who just wants to hold everything together, and the former Senators who Palpatine had stripped of their powers. There would also be a Fleet faction that's the real kingmaker in all this - who the Fleet backs will win out, because the Fleet will carry the Emperor's will. The problem with the Old Republic is that it was stagnating and corrupt and it had no strong leadership to combat either problem. Palpatine may have been a 'bad Emperor' like Nero was, but that doesn't mean an Augustus, or Marcus Aurelius or someone like that couldn't ascend to the throne.

I have this view that Galactic civilisation was on a downward spiral due to the problems in the Old Republic, and something like an Empire would be inevitable. I'm inspired a bit by Foundation in thinking this. The Old Republic was destined to fall and rather than have thousands of centuries of lawless chaos, an Empire was formed instead. (Ok so Palpatine was a Sith so he wasn't the best guy to form an Empire...)

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