Coming soon: Apple's iGovernment, brought to you by Boeing

N&P: Discussion of news headlines and politics.

Moderator: frigidmagi

Post Reply
User avatar
Derek Thunder
Disciple
Posts: 562
Joined: Fri Mar 21, 2008 4:47 pm
16
Location: Fairbanks, AK
Contact:

#1 Coming soon: Apple's iGovernment, brought to you by Boeing

Post by Derek Thunder »

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/ja ... urt-ruling
The US supreme court has delivered a fresh blow to the Democrats, already reeling from their stunning defeat in the Massachusetts Senate race, by opening the floodgates to huge corporate funding of campaigns for or against presidential and congressional candidates.

In a decision that could have a profound impact on future elections, the court overturned a 20-year-old ruling that barred businesses from paying for campaign adverts. The decision in what is known as the Citizens United case will allow big businesses – such those selling arms, drugs or insurance companies – that already wield influence through lobby groups to openly back favoured candidates who support their interests.

The court also struck down part of a separate campaign finance bill that barred companies and trade unions from publishing political adverts in the closing days of election campaigns.

The ruling was swiftly condemned by liberal pressure groups such as the People for the American Way, which described it as "putting corporate power above individual rights".

"It is a long established principle that the government can act in the interest of democracy to prevent corporations from pouring in billions of dollars to unduly influence elections," the group said. "Given conservative rhetoric about deference to the democratically elected branches, today's ruling is stunning".

Republicans are expected to be the principal beneficiaries of the ruling, a further blow to some Democratic party candidates in November's midterm elections who are already feeling exposed after the Republican candidate, Scott Brown, won an upset victory in Massachusetts, taking the seat left vacant by the death of Democratic icon Edward (Ted) Kennedy.

Nineteen of the Democrats' remaining 59 seats in the Senate are up for re-election in November. Several incumbents told Politico that all of them are now considered vulnerable.

"Every state is now in play," said Barbara Boxer, who is facing a serious challenge for her California seat from a wealthy Republican, Carly Fiorina.

Other Democratic Senators are urging the administration to drop unpopular legislation, such as the cap-and-trade bill to control greenhouse gases, until the economy has recovered and voters are less concerned about government expenditure and the impact of such laws on business.

Senator Ben Cardin said: "People in our states want us to deal with the economy, with jobs. All of us are going to be subject to that type of anger."

Separately, the House of Representatives speaker Nancy Pelosi has admitted that Obama's healthcare reform bill is unlikely to have enough support in the House to pass without changes.

"I don't see the votes for it," Pelosi told reporters. She said Democratic congressional leaders were "not in a big rush" to determine their next move on healthcare but remained determined to pass a bill this year.

On Capitol Hill, Scott Brown was already being spoken of as a potential Republican presidential candidate, though he is also being eyed warily by rightwing colleagues concerned that he may prove too liberal. His support of abortion rights and his vote in favour of Massachusetts' own compulsory health care insurance, even though he campaigned against similar national policies, has some on the right watching him carefully.

He is being greeted among some Republicans as a welcome alternative to the party's more extreme elements. Brown ran a clever campaign that drew in independent voters and avoided party infighting.

The Republican leadership has sought to quieten the most vocally conservative wing of the party, which often drives away younger voters and independents, particularly outside of the south.

In a sign of the Republican party's difficulties in finding credible leadership, David Gergen, who served as Ronald Reagan's communications director, has suggested on CNN that Brown could make a presidential run alongside Sarah Palin.
The majority decision can be found here, for those more well-versed in legalese:

http://www.supremecourtus.gov/opinions/09pdf/08-205.pdf
Last edited by Derek Thunder on Thu Jan 21, 2010 2:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.
[align=center]Image[/align]
[align=center]"Wikipedia is mankind's greatest invention. You can learn about anything. We all know Ray J. We all know he's a singer. He's Brandy's brother. And he was in that classic sex tape with Kim Kardashian. But, did you also know he's Snoop Dogg's cousin AND he was in the 1996 Tim Burton movie Mars Attacks? Suddenly, you're on the Mars Attacks page!'"[/align]
User avatar
SirNitram
The All-Seeing Eye
Posts: 5178
Joined: Thu Jun 30, 2005 7:13 pm
19
Location: Behind you, duh!
Contact:

#2

Post by SirNitram »

I once again support Grayson's ideal reform for this, The Business Should Mind Its Own Business Act. The practical outcome would be a 500% excise tax on political contributions or political work done by a corporation. IE, spend a billion on the campaign in ways, pay 5 billion to Uncle Sam.

Pity the GOP will demand cloture votes for all of it. And thus require 60.(It's sad, but the rules literally require nothing more.)
Half-Damned, All Hero.

Tev: You're happy. You're Plotting. You're Evil.
Me: Evil is so inappropriate. I'm ruthless.
Tev: You're turning me on.

I Am Rage. You Will Know My Fury.
User avatar
Rogue 9
Master
Posts: 1994
Joined: Thu Aug 11, 2005 10:07 pm
19
Contact:

#3

Post by Rogue 9 »

SirNitram wrote:I once again support Grayson's ideal reform for this, The Business Should Mind Its Own Business Act. The practical outcome would be a 500% excise tax on political contributions or political work done by a corporation. IE, spend a billion on the campaign in ways, pay 5 billion to Uncle Sam.

Pity the GOP will demand cloture votes for all of it. And thus require 60.(It's sad, but the rules literally require nothing more.)
I dunno, not every Republican in Congress is thrilled by today's decision. It was McCain's act that the ruling overturned in the first place; he'll probably be right up front when Congress scrambles to replace the bill with something else.
The Paladin's Domain, My Blog (Updated 5/18/2009)

"Live free or die: Death is not the worst of evils." -- General John Stark

"A fortress circumvented ceases to be an obstacle.
A fortress destroyed ceases to be a threat.
Do not forget the difference."

"Fairy tales do not tell children the dragons exist. Children already know that dragons exist. Fairy tales tell children the dragons can be killed." -- G. K. Chesterton
User avatar
The Cleric
Thy Kingdom Come...
Posts: 741
Joined: Wed Jun 08, 2005 1:34 pm
19
Location: The Right Hand Of GOD
Contact:

#4

Post by The Cleric »

I'm ok with corporate advertising for politicians if we can eliminate lobbyists entirely.
Never shall innocent blood be shed, yet the blood of the wicked shall flow like a river.

The three shall spread their blackened wings and be the vengeful striking hammer of god.
User avatar
Rogue 9
Master
Posts: 1994
Joined: Thu Aug 11, 2005 10:07 pm
19
Contact:

#5

Post by Rogue 9 »

The Cleric wrote:I'm ok with corporate advertising for politicians if we can eliminate lobbyists entirely.
Which we can't.
The Paladin's Domain, My Blog (Updated 5/18/2009)

"Live free or die: Death is not the worst of evils." -- General John Stark

"A fortress circumvented ceases to be an obstacle.
A fortress destroyed ceases to be a threat.
Do not forget the difference."

"Fairy tales do not tell children the dragons exist. Children already know that dragons exist. Fairy tales tell children the dragons can be killed." -- G. K. Chesterton
User avatar
frigidmagi
Dragon Death-Marine General
Posts: 14757
Joined: Wed Jun 08, 2005 11:03 am
19
Location: Alone and unafraid

#6

Post by frigidmagi »

I'm gonna point out that while many lobbyist are corrupt and slimey, there are lobbyist who do good work. Many of the anti-stalking laws in effect are the result of lobbyists, as are the laws that effect my deaf parents ensuring they're treated as full citizens. In short Lobbyists do fulfill a needed function as advocates for people to their representatives, this is important when you can't afford to hang around all year in DC and do your own lobbying.

The problem is misuse of the system by the wealthy. Corporations basically find crooked lobbyists to use as front men to bribe and buy Congresscritters and get the laws they want. Getting rid of lobbyist won't change the bribing and buying, it'll just give rise to a new set of middlemen. What we need is reform in the system.

I call them College Football rules. Under these rules a lobbyist or anyone who employs a lobbyist would be under the same rules that college football coaches and boosters are. Simply put, they can't give any gifts, loan any money, do any favors or even buy a Congresscritter lunch.

Combine this with a new divisions of the FBI whose job it would be to specific watch the Congress...
"it takes two sides to end a war but only one to start one. And those who do not have swords may still die upon them." Tolken
User avatar
rhoenix
The Artist formerly known as Rhoenix
Posts: 7998
Joined: Fri Dec 22, 2006 4:01 pm
17
Location: "Here," for varying values of "here."
Contact:

#7

Post by rhoenix »

frigidmagi wrote:I call them College Football rules. Under these rules a lobbyist or anyone who employs a lobbyist would be under the same rules that college football coaches and boosters are. Simply put, they can't give any gifts, loan any money, do any favors or even buy a Congresscritter lunch.

Combine this with a new divisions of the FBI whose job it would be to specific watch the Congress...
I would vote for this measure without a moment's hesitation. Excellent idea.
"Before you diagnose yourself with depression or low self-esteem, make sure that you are not, in fact, just surrounded by assholes."

- William Gibson


Josh wrote:What? There's nothing weird about having a pet housefly. He smuggles cigarettes for me.
User avatar
frigidmagi
Dragon Death-Marine General
Posts: 14757
Joined: Wed Jun 08, 2005 11:03 am
19
Location: Alone and unafraid

#8

Post by frigidmagi »

We're gonna need a Constitutional Amendment to overrule this.
"it takes two sides to end a war but only one to start one. And those who do not have swords may still die upon them." Tolken
User avatar
Comrade Tortoise
Exemplar
Posts: 4832
Joined: Thu Jun 09, 2005 1:33 am
19
Location: Land of steers and queers indeed
Contact:

#9

Post by Comrade Tortoise »

frigidmagi wrote:We're gonna need a Constitutional Amendment to overrule this.
Yes we will, and the chances of getting it passed are approximately -8%

Yep. Definitely going to try to post doc in europe and use that as a stepping stone for emigration.
Last edited by Comrade Tortoise on Fri Feb 05, 2010 8:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"Nothing in biology makes sense except in the light of evolution."
- Theodosius Dobzhansky

There is no word harsh enough for this. No verbal edge sharp and cold enough to set forth the flaying needed. English is to young and the elder languages of the earth beyond me. ~Frigid

The Holocaust was an Amazing Logistical Achievement~Havoc
User avatar
Rogue 9
Master
Posts: 1994
Joined: Thu Aug 11, 2005 10:07 pm
19
Contact:

#10

Post by Rogue 9 »

frigidmagi wrote:We're gonna need a Constitutional Amendment to overrule this.
Or a future Supreme Court.
The Paladin's Domain, My Blog (Updated 5/18/2009)

"Live free or die: Death is not the worst of evils." -- General John Stark

"A fortress circumvented ceases to be an obstacle.
A fortress destroyed ceases to be a threat.
Do not forget the difference."

"Fairy tales do not tell children the dragons exist. Children already know that dragons exist. Fairy tales tell children the dragons can be killed." -- G. K. Chesterton
User avatar
rhoenix
The Artist formerly known as Rhoenix
Posts: 7998
Joined: Fri Dec 22, 2006 4:01 pm
17
Location: "Here," for varying values of "here."
Contact:

#11

Post by rhoenix »

Rogue 9 wrote:Or a future Supreme Court.
...Brought to you by AirBus.
"Before you diagnose yourself with depression or low self-esteem, make sure that you are not, in fact, just surrounded by assholes."

- William Gibson


Josh wrote:What? There's nothing weird about having a pet housefly. He smuggles cigarettes for me.
User avatar
frigidmagi
Dragon Death-Marine General
Posts: 14757
Joined: Wed Jun 08, 2005 11:03 am
19
Location: Alone and unafraid

#12

Post by frigidmagi »

[quote"Rogue 9"]Or a future Supreme Court.[/quote]

When was the last time a Supreme Court overruled itself? It is not a good idea to depend on the Supreme Court. How much have they nicked from us in the last 10 years for the Corps?

Windswept wrote:Brought to you by AirBus.
Fun thought, the governments of France and Germany own stock and hold seats in the Corporate board of AirBus. Leading to my next thought.

CT wrote:Yes we will, and the chances of getting it passed are approximately -8%
And if we do nothing, the chances of anything being done are nothing. You cannot win if you do not try. Besides who the hell promised you easy?
CT Again wrote:Yep. Definitely going to try to post doc in europe and use that as a stepping stone for emigration.
Most folks I would throw rocks at. However I cannot blame you for leaving a nation that refuses to treat you as a citizen. In places you aren't even treated as a human being. There's no reason for you to accept this treatment So please consider yourself exempt from the comments below.

One of the reasons I tend to hold liberals as a group in contempt is their reaction to adversity. When conservatives lost massively last year, their response was to promise to fight harder, to cause more pain to the other side, to not surrender an inch. It was a mean spirited promised in alot of ways but it also showed a refuse to bow to fate. A willingness to fight.

Liberals experience a bump or a nudge and I see folks screaming about running to Canada. Or Europe, which frankly makes me laugh, because bluntly Europe has plenty of it's own problem that it refuses to even talk about. Am I suppose to be impressed by this? Am I suppose to want to help people who run for the hills because someone fought back?

It's your right to leave if you wish and I will fight to protect that right for you. I say for you because if events are any suggest, a good minority of you of the very least lack the ability to fight. It's amazing that the liberal movement in America scores any victories at all given the amount of dead weight then. However, while it is your right to go, it is not your right to be praised or go without some some parting words. To flee because you experienced a lost in a democratic system is an act of cowardice and insecurity. It is to proclaim that you do not believe in the strength of your ideas or do not have the conviction or strength to fight for them.

This is my home. This is my nation. I fought for this nation. I bled for it. It's mine. The suits, the bigots and the traitors can't have it. I will fight. It's not my fight, it's your fight, but I'll fight all the same. I will fight in the knowledge that I cannot be defeated. I can only be killed. That didn't defeat Lincoln. It won't defeat me. As for TR, well hell they couldn't even kill him and he was shot in the chest!

If a person won't fight for this, well what will they fight for that is worth a damn?

Was it a rough year. Hell Yes. It's been a rough decade. Pick yourself up and try again, how else do you expect to get anywhere.
"it takes two sides to end a war but only one to start one. And those who do not have swords may still die upon them." Tolken
User avatar
Cynical Cat
Arch-Magician
Posts: 11930
Joined: Thu Jun 09, 2005 8:53 pm
19
Location: Ice Sarcophagus outside a ruined Jedi Temple
Contact:

#13

Post by Cynical Cat »

frigidmagi wrote:We're gonna need a Constitutional Amendment to overrule this.
Remember the argument we had a while back over constitutions and how easy they should be to modify? Shit like this is why I am in the "easier than it is now" (to be fair the Canadian Constitution is even harder to modify than the American one, it just has the advantage of being written in the 1980s).

Given the level of gridlock in the American system and the difficulty of modifying the Constitution on top of that, I think a Constitutional Amendment has a snowball's chance in hell of passing at this time. There are a few Republics who will break ranks to support campaign finance reform so mitigating the damage by clever lawyering around the issue might be possible. As the ranks of both parties are chock full of lawyers, this might actually be an opportunity to use their powers for good instead of evil. It's certainly a tack worthy of investigation and one that actually has a decent chance of getting pushed through the political process.
It's not that I'm unforgiving, it's that most of the people who wrong me are unrepentant assholes.
User avatar
rhoenix
The Artist formerly known as Rhoenix
Posts: 7998
Joined: Fri Dec 22, 2006 4:01 pm
17
Location: "Here," for varying values of "here."
Contact:

#14

Post by rhoenix »

frigidmagi wrote:If a person won't fight for this, well what will they fight for that is worth a damn?

Was it a rough year. Hell Yes. It's been a rough decade. Pick yourself up and try again, how else do you expect to get anywhere.
Sage words, Frigid.

My mocking comments about foreign companies now having a domestic effect on election cycles aside, the fat cats doing this will keep doing this and other chicanery with money. At the same time, only apathy of the vast majority of the populace lets the jackasses get away with it - and that's most certainly party-neutral.

But, that's the heart of it - only apathy allows them to get their way; or put another way, "all evil needs to flourish is for good men to do nothing."

I'm not even sure what to classify myself as, since I don't want to ally myself wholeheartedly with Democrats, Republicans, or the Progressive or Conservative movements.

I do know that I would prefer weighing each item and each candidate on their own merits. (Holy shit B4, that Common Sense Party of yours is actually making more sense now.)

In short, vote, you lazy bums, vote!
"Before you diagnose yourself with depression or low self-esteem, make sure that you are not, in fact, just surrounded by assholes."

- William Gibson


Josh wrote:What? There's nothing weird about having a pet housefly. He smuggles cigarettes for me.
User avatar
frigidmagi
Dragon Death-Marine General
Posts: 14757
Joined: Wed Jun 08, 2005 11:03 am
19
Location: Alone and unafraid

#15

Post by frigidmagi »

There are a few Republics who will break ranks to support campaign finance reform so mitigating the damage by clever lawyering around the issue might be possible. As the ranks of both parties are chock full of lawyers, this might actually be an opportunity to use their powers for good instead of evil. It's certainly a tack worthy of investigation and one that actually has a decent chance of getting pushed through the political proces
That will only get struck down by the Supreme Court again. When the Supreme Court said that the corporations could do this, that means any thing short of changing the Constitution is now an illegal means of limiting them. They're saying that the Corporations have Constitutional Right to do this.

The Mind Your Own Business Act might get under the wire and I'm willing to back it but I have my doubts it'll survive a challenge in the super Corporate friendly Court these days.

In short an amendment is the only sure way, the Supreme Court can't do anything to that. Yes, I know conventional wisdom says it won't work. So what? I'd rather try and fail then just sit there on my ass or hope Congress does something that doesn't get shot down.
"it takes two sides to end a war but only one to start one. And those who do not have swords may still die upon them." Tolken
User avatar
Cynical Cat
Arch-Magician
Posts: 11930
Joined: Thu Jun 09, 2005 8:53 pm
19
Location: Ice Sarcophagus outside a ruined Jedi Temple
Contact:

#16

Post by Cynical Cat »

frigidmagi wrote:
That will only get struck down by the Supreme Court again. When the Supreme Court said that the corporations could do this, that means any thing short of changing the Constitution is now an illegal means of limiting them. They're saying that the Corporations have Constitutional Right to do this.
And we both know the fine art of legal loopholing has ways of getting around decisions like this while technically staying in line with them. Why the fuck should we go for the measure least likely to pass first without even investigating if a procedure more likely to succeed will work?
It's not that I'm unforgiving, it's that most of the people who wrong me are unrepentant assholes.
User avatar
frigidmagi
Dragon Death-Marine General
Posts: 14757
Joined: Wed Jun 08, 2005 11:03 am
19
Location: Alone and unafraid

#17

Post by frigidmagi »

And we both know the fine art of legal loopholing has ways of getting around decisions like this while technically staying in line with them. Why the fuck should we go for the measure least likely to pass first without even investigating if a procedure more likely to succeed will work?
Because

A: I don't believe they'll do it, and if we can blackmail them to do it why not go all the way?

B: I already said I would back any measure like the Mind Your Own Business Act, which would increase the cost of interfering with our political system 500% so it's not like I'm saying stop every effort then other then the one I'm suggesting.

C: Let's say I'm wrong (I'll admit not as an uncommon event as I would like) and a "loophole" gets passed. To get rid of it all they have to do is wait a couple of years and talk the Congress into ditching the law. While it is assuredly better then nothing, I fail to see why we should settle for such transitory and fragile protection.

D: Putting an Amendment puts this to sleep for good. We slam the door shut on Corps being involved instead of this being a problem that shows up every couple of decades. I know I'm nuts but for once, just fucking once I'd like to see a problem put down, staked, burned and buried instead of punted downstream.
"it takes two sides to end a war but only one to start one. And those who do not have swords may still die upon them." Tolken
User avatar
Cynical Cat
Arch-Magician
Posts: 11930
Joined: Thu Jun 09, 2005 8:53 pm
19
Location: Ice Sarcophagus outside a ruined Jedi Temple
Contact:

#18

Post by Cynical Cat »

I'm with you in that it should be killed with fire and then buried in the Antarctic just to be safe. While we're at it American needs a national elections department like Canada and Australia to cut down on shit like the voter intimidation and incorrect information that political operatives spew out.
It's not that I'm unforgiving, it's that most of the people who wrong me are unrepentant assholes.
User avatar
frigidmagi
Dragon Death-Marine General
Posts: 14757
Joined: Wed Jun 08, 2005 11:03 am
19
Location: Alone and unafraid

#19

Post by frigidmagi »

While we're at it American needs a national elections department like Canada and Australia to cut down on shit like the voter intimidation and incorrect information that political operatives spew out.
I really wish I could say we didn't need it. But we do. It's on the list.
"it takes two sides to end a war but only one to start one. And those who do not have swords may still die upon them." Tolken
User avatar
The Minx
Pleasure Kitten
Posts: 1581
Joined: Sun Sep 30, 2007 8:29 pm
17

#20

Post by The Minx »

I'm going to go against the grain here. Consider that we already had corporations who could speak out in support of political candidates in the critical 60 day period before a general election: the news corporations.

"Corporations" in the context of this SCOUTS decision doesn't just mean large conglomerates, but also non-profit groups and grass-roots organizations. These groups had no prior access to political activism which the media conglomerates previously had a monopoly on, so in that sense the decision is a victory for the average person. Obviously, Citizens United is a non-profit organization, so its not as though we're talking about a money-mill being behind this.

This will mean more opposition to incumbent politicians and a benefit to groups outside the usual power groups.
User avatar
Rogue 9
Master
Posts: 1994
Joined: Thu Aug 11, 2005 10:07 pm
19
Contact:

#21

Post by Rogue 9 »

frigidmagi wrote:
Rogue 9 wrote:Or a future Supreme Court.
When was the last time a Supreme Court overruled itself?
Last week. This decision overruled prior Supreme Court cases.
The Paladin's Domain, My Blog (Updated 5/18/2009)

"Live free or die: Death is not the worst of evils." -- General John Stark

"A fortress circumvented ceases to be an obstacle.
A fortress destroyed ceases to be a threat.
Do not forget the difference."

"Fairy tales do not tell children the dragons exist. Children already know that dragons exist. Fairy tales tell children the dragons can be killed." -- G. K. Chesterton
Post Reply