The Multi-Cultural Society and Its Enemies

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#1 The Multi-Cultural Society and Its Enemies

Post by Norseman »

There were no conspiracies and there are no grand plans for the Multi-Cultural society, just like there were no grand plans for a total European war in 1914. It's just a long list of missed chances, ideological convictions, and bad decisions made by often well meaning people, that has led to our current situation.

The Multi-Culturalists are convinced that they are right, and that their views are the only rational ones. Therefore if you argue against them you must be irrational, deranged, and possibly evil. In their eyes they are just taking steps to prevent madmen and evil people from speaking up in society. Everything they do makes perfect sense if you think at it that way, after all what would you feel entitled to do if a Stalin or Mussolini were to pop up in your community?

The Multi-Cultural elite can continue to maintain their fantasies because they are the 68ers, the generation of 1968, they are established, often wealthy, and all the immigrants they come in touch with will be adult and polite. They never see the dark side of immigration where they sit in their safe neighbourhoods. Even if they do spot a few undeniable incidents they can explain away statistics by claiming immigrants are arrested or reported more often, or that it is done because they are oppressed or poor. Humans are after all the rationalizing creature, not the rational one.

The young anarchists and radicals are not only young and foolish, but they think they are revolutionaries, and it's much more fun being on the dole, and being a revolutionary, than it is working at McDonalds. When you throw in a liking or acceptance of violence against "evil people" they too can explain away anything that doesn't fit their perception.

They have a problem though: the Multi-Cultural project was supposed to get better as time progressed, with the "racists" being laughed at and suppressed. Instead things are getting worse, people are openly protesting, anti-immigration parties are gaining strength. Something is obviously wrong here, and that something is the evil people that are against immigration.

Nationalism is derided by all European intellectuals, I don't believe in grand Gramscian schemes, I do believe in intellectual inertia. Remember that European intellectuals were heavily influenced by the Soviet Union and Socialism, then remember that American intellectuals are heavily influenced by European intellectuals. Anti-Nationalism was a strand of all Socialist thinking, and Nationalism suffered a lot due to the World Wars.

If there is one thing that is always found when people are against Internationalism or Multi-Culturalism then it is Nationalism, Patriotism, call it what you will. They were already against Nationalism, seeing it as evil, but now comes a second impulse: the desire to hurt and punish "evil people."

Claiming that this is purely due to a desire to hurt "daddy" is simplifying it too much, the Multi-Culturalists are daddy, they are the power or closely linked to it, they may deny this but it remains true.

I will give you some examples now, these are things I have personally experienced, and they are common in most Scandinavian nations.

Anti-Racism is taught extensively, if you go to a Scandinavian school you will on multiple occasions be made to sit through anti-racist short films. You will in addition be required to answer questions about it, and to have a class discussion about the subject. On multiple occasions you will be asked to participate in anti-racist work groups, encouraged to put up anti-racist plays or sketches. All of this is mandatory.

If you go to the school dining hall you will notice that there are multiple anti-racist posters hung on the walls with slogans like "They do not dilute our culture, they add to it." If you pass by tables in the halls with pamphlets on them, for educational offers and such, you can be sure that several of them will deal with the struggle against racism.

The United Nations is sacred, there are special campaign days where grade school students work a day to collect money for some program abroad, often UN related. There are films shown about the UNs work abroad, in high-school you will receive pamphlets telling you how you can help the UN. There are workgroups, and songs, and what have you to explain how great the UN is.

A Norwegian politician and activist was once asked what he thought of the moral code of the bible, his answer was: "Obviously there are some good moral rules there, but these days you can find that elsewhere, like the United Nations Declaration of Human Rights." That's the kind of near religious attitude that's promoted in regards to the United Nations.

The funny thing is that none of it works.

The students are taught that it is shameful and disgraceful to have "racist" thoughts, defined as any criticism of immigrants or immigration. They are taught that it is somehow dirty to object to immigration, illicit, and therefore they keep quiet about it. In short the attitude that is promoted is one familiar to any authoritarian state, people can't speak their minds and therefore don't know if anyone else agrees with them.

However...

Despite the propaganda, and that is what it is, people can plainly see that there are problems. They can see burka clad women in the streets, with the men walking in front. They hear about people who are beaten up and robbed, they have to lock their doors, they are afraid to walk in their own towns. So they are upset, and growing more upset, despite sterner hate speech laws, despite more desperate propaganda.

One of the anti-racism laws in Norway has this in it:
§ 10. Burden of proof

If there are circumstances that gives cause to believe that there has been a violation of paragrafs §§4, 5, 6, 7 or 9, it shall be assumed that a violation has occurred, unless the person responsible for the action, omission, or statement gives evidence that it's more probable than not that there has been no such violation.
Even such draconian laws fail to stem the tide, people may be forced to be silent in public, but they talk in private, and they start to disbelieve the governments propaganda. Unfortunately they sometimes disbelieve the truth as well, since they've come to view as suspect all government statements in this field.

The reason is that Multi-Culturalism is inherently flawed, it literally cannot work. The Multi-Culturalists cannot accept this, because it goes against their dislike of nationalism, and their belief that human behaviour is primarily dictated by economic concerns.

The reaction people have when they see that something is wrong depends on Culture, and on the political system of the nation involved.

In Denmark and Norway elections are genuinely secret: you're allowed into a small cubicle where you find election slips for all the major parties, you put one slip into an envelope, leave the cubicle, walk to the voting urn and drop the envelope into it.

In Sweden representatives of the various parties stand outside the voting boot, and you must ask for that slip of paper, in short the neighbours can see whose slip of paper you collect.

In short in Denmark and Norway you could do the shameful thing, voting for anti-immigrant parties, in secret without anyone else knowing who did it. Afterwards, once the party gains a lot of votes, it's not so shameful anymore, and that is why those parties draw so much vitriol; they are taking a shameful thing and making it acceptable. Puritans everywhere hate that, even socialist puritans.

In Sweden the shameful thing must be done in the public view, where all can see, and rumours would fly. Not so easy is it? Then add that the Swedes are traditionally very devoted to the state, and to order, making it doubly hard to go against the consensus.

Here then you have the difference between the Scandinavian countries, quite simple when you look at it. Once more it's the same in authoritarian countries, if you're not really able to organise or speak out you learn to keep your mouth shut, but once people can talk the tidal waves often open. There's nothing as destabilizing as free and secret elections, and that is a good thing.

Ideologies tend to grow in isolation, among people who think alike, if they can also isolate themselves from the rest of the world that is even better, that creates a huge echo chamber where no true dissenting voice can be heard. Since their grandiose plans make so much sense when they discuss them, and since there's no real dissent they get very upset when someone makes a genuine objection.

It gets even worse when they have no good answer. Hell hath no fury as an ideologue presented with an objection he can't answer easily or at all.

Ideas have consequences, basic doctrine has consequences, an ideology or belief cannot escape its background. A doctrine that hasn't been tested against the real world during its inception tends to have severe flaws. Multi-Culturalism is not based so much on the idea that cultures are all equal, as on the idea that culture doesn't matter; it's economic conditions that make people behave they way they are.

Consider this: Why are there no revolutions in Europe? Because the people have no reason to rebel, they are rich and fat. The oppressed working classes are now abroad, since the wealth of the West must come from oppression then it is they who are being oppressed, but they cannot rebel since they are in a different country. The solution obviously is to bring the oppressed masses into Europe, to force the Europeans to conform to the ideal, to share the wealth, and to bring about a revolution.

Instead of looking for conspiracies look for naiveté, sympathy for the oppressed, and the old socialist belief that people are economic creatures and that their behaviour is mainly due to the economic conditions they labour under. For the hardcore Marxist there's also the tantalizing possibility of a revolution once they have a new oppressed proletariat.

Once more from their point of view if you object to another culture you are either selfish and evil, or simply irrational, because everyone knows that cultures don't really matter. Get rid of the Nations, of the Cultures, mix everyone together and all that is left are the economic pressures.

That is how they can deal with Islamism, to them it is honestly not much of a problem, sure they are primitive and backwards now but a few generations in the west will solve that. Meanwhile the Muslims are viewed as a wonderful oppressed underclass who will vote the right way, threaten the evil people, and then gracefully turn into good citizens of the world once Nationalism and Nations are no more. That to me is the real racism.

Then again you can't make an omelette without breaking a few eggs!

Just don't ask where all the omelettes are...
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#2 Re: The Multi-Cultural Society and Its Enemies

Post by Kreshna Aryaguna Nurzaman »

Norseman wrote:A Norwegian politician and activist was once asked what he thought of the moral code of the bible, his answer was: "Obviously there are some good moral rules there, but these days you can find that elsewhere, like the United Nations Declaration of Human Rights." That's the kind of near religious attitude that's promoted in regards to the United Nations.
Just because someone happens to agree with one point of the UN more than he agrees with the bible, it doesn't mean that he must agree to every single point made by the UN. Besides, I don't see anything wrong with someone agrees with human rights more than the bible.


Norseman wrote:Despite the propaganda, and that is what it is, people can plainly see that there are problems. They can see burka clad women in the streets, with the men walking in front.
Frankly, I don't see any problem with women wearing burka; neither do I have problems with a bunch of nuns wearing headscarf and big cross while refusing to have sex for their entire life. They're fine by me as long as:
(1) they're doing it out of THEIR OWN consent.
(2) they're not trying to shove their beliefs down into my throat.


Norseman wrote:They hear about people who are beaten up and robbed, they have to lock their doors, they are afraid to walk in their own towns. So they are upset, and growing more upset, despite sterner hate speech laws, despite more desperate propaganda.
There is BIG difference between wearing burka and mugging people. You are mixing things up.


Norseman wrote:Multi-Culturalism is not based so much on the idea that cultures are all equal, as on the idea that culture doesn't matter; it's economic conditions that make people behave they way they are.
Surprise, surprise: IT IS. What makes you think people doing shitty job at McDonald's or Wal-Mart, if not for money? Do you really believe that Pablo Escobar became drug dealer because of the Latin culture?

Yea, right. Mugged by a Hispanic, and let's blame the entire "Latin culture" for it. Robbed by an African-American, let's blame the "African culture". And of course, King Fahd was roaming the streets of Oslo in incognito for the purpose of mugging people around despite the billions of money he had, simply because of his "culture". :roll:
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#3

Post by frigidmagi »

surprise: IT IS.


Surprise, you're fucking wrong. Maybe you missed the point, the point of that statement was culture is a greater push on your actions and worldview then economics is. Poor Americans are going to view the world more like other wealthier American then they do poor Africans, poor Europeans, Poor Japanese or poor Chinese.

This isn't a radical concept, it's fucking proven by history and politics every damn time. Look at how poor French students drove the French Government into surrender over an measure that would maker it easier to hire and fire young employees. This is something that is accepted as fucking normal in the US and other parts of the world.

Or how people in WWI with more economically in common with people across the border were more then happy to slaughter each other en masse?

Economics has nothing on culture in the terms of shaping worldview and morality. If it was econmics that was the driving force you wouldn't have to make posts complaining about the actions fundalmentist in your own nation KAN, think about it, economics is not moivatiing them, Culture is! It isn't your culture, it isn't your mother's culture has you pointed out but it is a culture none the less.
There is BIG difference between wearing burka and mugging people. You are mixing things up.
You're right, I'm more inclined to see a women wearing a burka has a victum bluntly. But his point is the burka is a symbol of seperation and cultural isolation when intergration is needed.
Frankly, I don't see any problem with women wearing burka; neither do I have problems with a bunch of nuns wearing headscarf and big cross while refusing to have sex for life. They're fine by me as long as:
(1) they're doing it out of THEIR OWN consent.
(2) they're not trying to shove their beliefs down into my throat.
Okay a couple of problems here.

1: A nun's outfit is a UNIFORM! You have to go through training and tests to order to earn the right to wear that fucking penguin suit and title. You can quit anytime you want. There are plenty of ex-nuns walking around.

2: A burka is not a uniform you earn. It's something you have to wear or else. Don't believe me? Do I have to remind of the acid attacks in some backward parts of the world? Or the posts I've made of muslim women in Europe who are attacked for among other things not wearing the burhka? There is a reason after decades of tolerance and easy going live and let live the Dutch of all people have banned the wearing of the garment.

Your comparsion is bluntly wrong and foolish KAN.

Multiculturism has failed utterly, prejudice and bigotry are not answer true, but refusing to admit the failure is just as fucking bad.
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#4

Post by SirNitram »

A depressing reality. Multiculturalism ultimately fails because of the fact many of the cultures are built to be monocultures, naturally intolerant. Not all, but one or two loud ones will do all the damage you need.

Multiculturalism, for all intents and purposes, in the foreseeable future, is a failure. It is time to sift through the wreckage, find what worked, and begin the process of building something new to replace it.

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#5

Post by Stofsk »

frigidmagi wrote:Multiculturism has failed utterly, prejudice and bigotry are not answer true, but refusing to admit the failure is just as fucking bad.
Why? And in what ways has multiculturalism 'failed utterly'?

I'm not sure I entirely followed Norseman's lengthy post, but it seems to me to be a complaint over how multiculturalism is perceived as 'right' in his society, whereas being anti-immigration is something that is 'wrong'. although a lot of what he reveals frankly comes across as moronic, the burden of proof in the anti-racism laws for instance.

So my understanding is there is no healthy intellectual debate over multiculturalism vs anti-immigration?
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#6

Post by SirNitram »

Stofsk wrote:So my understanding is there is no healthy intellectual debate over multiculturalism vs anti-immigration?
It's a bit of a red herring. You can have both, you can have neither. Multiculturalism is opposed by monoculturalism. Unfortunately, many cultures are naturally monocultural. Beyond the perfectly normal homogenizing effect of cultures, many do the very simple prospect of proclaiming 'Others' to be evil or prey.
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#7

Post by Norseman »

EDIT: Deleted this since I answer it better in the post below.
Last edited by Norseman on Mon Mar 05, 2007 12:41 am, edited 1 time in total.
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#8 Re: The Multi-Cultural Society and Its Enemies

Post by Norseman »

Kreshna Aryaguna Nurzaman wrote:
Norseman wrote:A Norwegian politician and activist was once asked what he thought of the moral code of the bible, his answer was: "Obviously there are some good moral rules there, but these days you can find that elsewhere, like the United Nations Declaration of Human Rights." That's the kind of near religious attitude that's promoted in regards to the United Nations.
Just because someone happens to agree with one point of the UN more than he agrees with the bible, it doesn't mean that he must agree to every single point made by the UN. Besides, I don't see anything wrong with someone agrees with human rights more than the bible.
Actually it most assuredly does mean that he agrees with every point that the UN makes. UN conventions are entered unmodified into Norwegian Law. Schools dedicate entire days to praising the UN, work days, days going around collecting money, etc etc.

Let me put it this way: You go around in the political sections of Norway and dismiss the bible, and be very abusive of religion. At most you will get some mild reproach. You try speaking up against the United Nations and it's like you're blaspheming in a Baptist Church, you simply have no idea.

Kreshna Aryaguna Nurzaman wrote:
Norseman wrote:Despite the propaganda, and that is what it is, people can plainly see that there are problems. They can see burka clad women in the streets, with the men walking in front.
Frankly, I don't see any problem with women wearing burka; neither do I have problems with a bunch of nuns wearing headscarf and big cross while refusing to have sex for their entire life.
Well said outfits are far less encumbering than a full Burka, and don't hide the face...
Kreshna Aryaguna Nurzaman wrote:They're fine by me as long as:
(1) they're doing it out of THEIR OWN consent.
Well they would consent if they don't want to be raped, have acid thrown on their face, be beaten up by their family or massively harassed.
Kreshna Aryaguna Nurzaman wrote:(2) they're not trying to shove their beliefs down into my throat.
Unni Wikan, a famous intellectual and professor in social anthropology, recently said that Norwegian women had to take a good deal of the blame for the rape epidemic, after all they were dressing very provocatively and had to realise that they were living in a multi-cultural society.
Kreshna Aryaguna Nurzaman wrote:
Norseman wrote:They hear about people who are beaten up and robbed, they have to lock their doors, they are afraid to walk in their own towns. So they are upset, and growing more upset, despite sterner hate speech laws, despite more desperate propaganda.
There is BIG difference between wearing burka and mugging people. You are mixing things up.
Actually both are commonly viewed as problems, I list big problems, I list small problems, but to the common man these are serious problems that he can see.
Kreshna Aryaguna Nurzaman wrote:
Norseman wrote:Multi-Culturalism is not based so much on the idea that cultures are all equal, as on the idea that culture doesn't matter; it's economic conditions that make people behave they way they are.
Surprise, surprise: IT IS. What makes you think people doing shitty job at McDonald's or Wal-Mart, if not for money? Do you really believe that Pablo Escobar became drug dealer because of the Latin culture?

Yea, right. Mugged by a Hispanic, and let's blame the entire "Latin culture" for it. Robbed by an African-American, let's blame the "African culture". And of course, King Fahd was roaming the streets of Oslo in incognito for the purpose of mugging people around despite the billions of money he had, simply because of his "culture". :roll:
As Frigidmagi said culture is and has always been the primary determinant of peoples behaviour, you can't judge a culture on a few outliers you need to look at the behaviour of the group as a whole.

Economy is not the primary motivating force for anyone, Norway provides absurd levels of welfare, there's no economic need for anyone to turn to a life of crime. You can genuinely live, and live reasonably well, on a welfare allowance, even someone who has never worked a day in his life would end up with around $16 000 - $17 000 per year after taxes, and yes you read that number right.

With this in mind poor Norwegians don't turn to crime, there's no need. Mind you even before the welfare state, even before Norway got money, when Norway was one of the poorest most backwards nations in Europe the crime rate was astoundingly low.
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#9

Post by Kreshna Aryaguna Nurzaman »

frigidmagi wrote:
surprise: IT IS.


Surprise, you're fucking wrong. Maybe you missed the point, the point of that statement was culture is a greater push on your actions and worldview then economics is.

That's exactly the point I argue: that culture is NO greater push than economy.


frigidmagi wrote:Poor Americans are going to view the world more like other wealthier American then they do poor Africans, poor Europeans, Poor Japanese or poor Chinese.
And you simply attribute it to cultural differences than the severity levels between those countries? For instance, at least poor people in developed countries can still get their basic needs, while the poor in Africa are starving to death.


frigidmagi wrote:This isn't a radical concept, it's fucking proven by history and politics every damn time. Look at how poor French students drove the French Government into surrender over an measure that would maker it easier to hire and fire young employees. This is something that is accepted as fucking normal in the US and other parts of the world.
So? Of course there ARE differences of actions caused by different cultural values, but saying that culture is much bigger drives than economics is to far-fetched.


frigidmagi wrote:Or how people in WWI with more economically in common with people across the border were more then happy to slaughter each other en masse?
And how do you explain the fact that one of the causes of WWI is economic rivalry?

How culture explain wars throughout history, whose goal is primarily grabbing the resources (land, slaves, etc), despite whatever the excuse it? Do you really believe that European colonists in 16th century, for instance, were really interested to promote their culture instead of milking the Asian kingdoms for resources? Do you seriously believe the Japanese invaded Indonesia simply because they had cultural differences with the Dutch?


frigidmagi wrote:Economics has nothing on culture in the terms of shaping worldview and morality.
Yes it has. Better economy can (and generally, although not always the case) translate into better education, which in turn will help shape our views and attitude.

Say, have you ever heard of Maslow's Hierarcy of Needs? Basic needs always come first, while things like morality and self-actualization usually come after all other needs fulfilled. Whether we like it or not, it is simply what happens around us.

Mind you, I'm not being elitist here; I'm NOT saying that poor people must always be immoral and stupid. However, I disagree with extrapolating behaviours that are actually out of poverty and desperation as "cultural values" of the entire ethnic group. When a Hispanic mugged you, it is NOT because the morality of Latin culture support mugging, but probably because his family is starving and he cannot get a job, and he is desperate.


frigidmagi wrote:If it was econmics that was the driving force you wouldn't have to make posts complaining about the actions fundalmentist in your own nation KAN, think about it, economics is not moivatiing them, Culture is! It isn't your culture, it isn't your mother's culture has you pointed out but it is a culture none the less.
And there's also fact that Indonesian suicide bombers came from poor, undereducated family --people who are desperate by their economic situation that they're more susceptible to brainwash.

By the way, that's why I'm disgusted by the Wahhabi cells in Indonesia; they always target undereducated people who live in poverty and desperation, because they're always easy to get brainwashed.


frigidmagi wrote:You're right, I'm more inclined to see a women wearing a burka has a victum bluntly. But his point is the burka is a symbol of seperation and cultural isolation when intergration is needed.
Why does it have to? What is wrong if the woman was being forced and/or coerced to wear burka, but as long as she wears it fully by her own consent, then it's her life and none of my business, and I don't see why it should clash with my "cultural values" despite the fact that I think burka is weird.


frigidmagi wrote:Okay a couple of problems here.

1: A nun's outfit is a UNIFORM! You have to go through training and tests to order to earn the right to wear that fucking penguin suit and title. You can quit anytime you want. There are plenty of ex-nuns walking around.

2: A burka is not a uniform you earn.
How does it relevant with my point that burka is okay as long as she wears it out of her own consent instead of being forced or coerced to do so?



frigidmagi wrote:It's something you have to wear or else. Don't believe me? Do I have to remind of the acid attacks in some backward parts of the world? Or the posts I've made of muslim women in Europe who are attacked for among other things not wearing the burhka? There is a reason after decades of tolerance and easy going live and let live the Dutch of all people have banned the wearing of the garment.
And nobody said that I justify forcing the women to wear burka in the name of multiculturalism. Nope. Nowhere have I said that multiculturalism is absolute and has no limit, and nowhere have I said that multiculturalism justifies the fact that you can hit women because she's not wearing burka.


frigidmagi wrote:Your comparsion is bluntly wrong and foolish KAN.
No. See above. My comparison is based on the condition that the women wear burka out of their consent.

I don't know much about burka, but here in this country, there are a lot of muslim women who wear headscarf by their own free will. And while I prefer looking at women wearing bikini instead of headscarf, basically I don't have problems sitting in the same restaurant with those who wear it, despite that I have different cultural values with them.


frigidmagi wrote:Multiculturism has failed utterly, prejudice and bigotry are not answer true, but refusing to admit the failure is just as fucking bad.
I believe it's too far-fetched to decide whether multiculturalism has succeed or failed. And I surely don't believe that it works just like an "on-off button"; just like any other ideologies out there, it has its own strength and weakness, as well as successes and failures. Canada and Malaysia are examples where multiculturalism has been relatively smooth, for example.

What I disagree is blaming everything on "cultural values" while we should blame their economic conditions instead. Hello? Guess what? They're immigrants, for fuck's sake! They did not come to European nations to commit war against "western culture"; they came because they looked for better economic conditions! Of course they are poor and undereducated, otherwise they would NOT have come to Europe on the first place.

I don't insist that they are the 'oppressed underclass' either, but I do agree that improving their economy and education will help them shedding off the negative aspect of their "culture" (like mugging people, or beating women who don't wear burka).
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#10

Post by Stofsk »

Norseman wrote:1. Multi-culturalism has never worked and cannot work, whenever two cultures have existed in the same area they've either fought untill one displaced the other; or untill they've mixed creating a new mono-culture. The only partial exemptions are apartheid states of various stripes.
Y'know, I don't actually have a problem with immigrants having to assimilate to the new culture, and I don't consider that racist, I consider that reasonable. I think there are cases where multiculturalism has been successful, but perhaps that success is not total or perfect.
2. Various European states ban the Burka
Good. Islam is a very whiny religion.
3. There is a debate going on right now in Denmark, and, to some extent, Norway. There is no debate in Sweden. See for yourself what effect that has.
Which is what I asked. If there's no debate going on in Sweden, then I feel for you.
4. The politician who mentioned the United Nations Declaration of Human Rights was one of many who adore the UN. Did you read my post? DO you have any idea of the level of brainwashing going on?
I don't see why the UN Declaration of Human Rights is a bad thing, or the UN in general being a bad thing, that said, I find the assumption that the UN is perfect to be just as stupid as the belief that it is evil. I can admit that the UN is flawed, in many ways deeply flawed, but it's successes tend to be of the 'not sexy enough to make the 6 o'clock news' variety.
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#11

Post by Stofsk »

SirNitram wrote:
Stofsk wrote:So my understanding is there is no healthy intellectual debate over multiculturalism vs anti-immigration?
It's a bit of a red herring. You can have both, you can have neither. Multiculturalism is opposed by monoculturalism. Unfortunately, many cultures are naturally monocultural. Beyond the perfectly normal homogenizing effect of cultures, many do the very simple prospect of proclaiming 'Others' to be evil or prey.
I don't have a problem with there being a balance. Both multi- and mono-culturalism come across as extreme positions to me. Extreme mono- leads to nationalism, and extreme multi- just leads to ghettos and self-segregation.

You hit the nail on the head when you say some cultures are more naturally mono- in outlook than others; which implies other cultures are more accepting and multi- in outlook. This is why I think multiculturalism has been a success in some areas, a disaster or a failure in other areas.
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#12 Re: The Multi-Cultural Society and Its Enemies

Post by Kreshna Aryaguna Nurzaman »

Norseman wrote:As Frigidmagi said culture is and has always been the primary determinant of peoples behaviour,
And how do we explain that throughout history, economic-driven behavior and/or attitude like greed or war for resources have never changed despite constant cultural changes? How do we explain that economic-driven behavior is pretty much universal despite differences in cultural values?

Another example: there are reason why communism has universally failed despite the cultural values of the nation where it was applied; because communism completely ignores the fact that human is primarily driven by economic desires --that humans universally expect economic rewards from their works.
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#13 Re: The Multi-Cultural Society and Its Enemies

Post by Norseman »

Kreshna Aryaguna Nurzaman wrote:
Norseman wrote:As Frigidmagi said culture is and has always been the primary determinant of peoples behaviour,
And how do we explain that throughout history, economic-driven behavior and/or attitude like greed or war for resources have never changed despite constant cultural changes? How do we explain that economic-driven behavior is pretty much universal despite differences in cultural values?
Because it isn't?

Moreover look at Europe prior to WWI, it was thought that the nations of Europe could never go to war because they were so interconnected economically. In fact the connections between the nations was so tight that it would be insane to go to war, economically speaking.

Ninety years later there is no chance whatsoever of the nations of Europe going to war... indeed they scream like branded calfs if they lose a couple hundred people

A hundred years ago in America the situation with immigration would lead to lynchmobs, houses being burned down, and the unruly immigrants being forced to adapt.

Today we got none of that, and immigration is very much a financial matter, at least to the poor American workers that are being outcompeted.

A hundred years ago a European nation with the ability to do so wouldn't think twice of colonizing a poor African nation, even if it didn't really make economic sense to do so (many colonies were losing propositions).

Today everyone is bending over to apologise to the Africans, and even interventions in Africa are fraught with serious debate.

A hundred years ago if European or American women were kept prisoner by some Arab regime her national government would send warships to get them out. If necessary occupying the most profitable regions of that nation.

Today, even though many European nations and the USA could do so, and would benefit from securing the oil supplies, there isn't a single move towards such actions. It'd be culturally unacceptable.

So you can see... peoples behaviour does change quite a bit with culture, even in areas where economy is very much at stake.
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#14 Re: The Multi-Cultural Society and Its Enemies

Post by Kreshna Aryaguna Nurzaman »

Norseman wrote:
Kreshna Aryaguna Nurzaman wrote:
Norseman wrote:As Frigidmagi said culture is and has always been the primary determinant of peoples behaviour,
And how do we explain that throughout history, economic-driven behavior and/or attitude like greed or war for resources have never changed despite constant cultural changes? How do we explain that economic-driven behavior is pretty much universal despite differences in cultural values?
Because it isn't?

Moreover look at Europe prior to WWI, it was thought that the nations of Europe could never go to war because they were so interconnected economically. In fact the connections between the nations was so tight that it would be insane to go to war, economically speaking.
Sorry, you're wrong. The seeds of WWI has been firmly planted by the rivalry of colonial expansion that started as early as 1880s'. There are reaons why the structural foundation of the war has been laid on Anglo-German tension, because German acquisitions in Africa and the Pacific threatened British strategic and commercial interests.

Norseman wrote:Today, even though many European nations and the USA could do so, and would benefit from securing the oil supplies, there isn't a single move towards such actions. It'd be culturally unacceptable.
Now it is culturaly unacceptable to economically exploit others through open warfare, but it is still acceptable to do the same exploitation through legal means like multinational corporations.


Norseman wrote:So you can see... peoples behaviour does change quite a bit with culture, even in areas where economy is very much at stake.
Of course, but people's behaviours when it goes to economic concerns fairly stays the same througout centuries.

See, this is actually where I disagree with your point, primarily because culture has always been changing througout history, while basic economic attitudes (or behavior) like greed never change.


EDIT:
Norseman wrote:Economy is not the primary motivating force for anyone, Norway provides absurd levels of welfare, there's no economic need for anyone to turn to a life of crime.
Yes, but lack of education is --which is what mostly their background is before they come to European nations.
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#15 Re: The Multi-Cultural Society and Its Enemies

Post by Norseman »

Kreshna Aryaguna Nurzaman wrote:Reason why communism has universally failed despite the cultural values of the nation where it was applied; because communism completely ignores the fact that human is primarily driven by economic desires --that humans universally expect economic rewards from their works.
On the contrary when I criticized the view that people are primarily economic creatures I was criticizing the Communist view, because that is what Marx peddled. Communism doesn't ignore the fact that people are primarily driven by economic concerns, it exalts that idea into an ideology.

However you are in fact wrong, take a look at East Germany and then at the USSR, the Germans were very hard workers and willing to keep the nose to the grindstone even under Communism. In the USSR this attitude was much weaker, people simply couldn't be bothered to work harder than they had to.

As a result the DDR was richer than the USSR, despite the fact that the DDR had been burned, sacked, raped, and exploited massively during the Soviet conquest.

Of course none of them could make Communism work, for the same reason that no culture can make water flow uphill.
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#16 Re: The Multi-Cultural Society and Its Enemies

Post by Kreshna Aryaguna Nurzaman »

Norseman wrote:
Kreshna Aryaguna Nurzaman wrote:Reason why communism has universally failed despite the cultural values of the nation where it was applied; because communism completely ignores the fact that human is primarily driven by economic desires --that humans universally expect economic rewards from their works.
On the contrary when I criticized the view that people are primarily economic creatures I was criticizing the Communist view, because that is what Marx peddled. Communism doesn't ignore the fact that people are primarily driven by economic concerns, it exalts that idea into an ideology.
It ignores the fact that humans are driven by economic rewards despite whatever culture she/he adopt. Communist nations failed because they ignore the reward element --hence the long queue for bread: everyone has the money, but the workers are not really motivated to make breads because they will get paid whether they're working or not.

Norseman wrote:However you are in fact wrong, take a look at East Germany and then at the USSR, the Germans were very hard workers and willing to keep the nose to the grindstone even under Communism. In the USSR this attitude was much weaker, people simply couldn't be bothered to work harder than they had to.
And yet the East Germans still had problems competing with their West German counterparts --especially during the start of unification-- despite the fact they're both Germans.
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#17 Re: The Multi-Cultural Society and Its Enemies

Post by Norseman »

Kreshna Aryaguna Nurzaman wrote:
Norseman wrote:
Kreshna Aryaguna Nurzaman wrote: And how do we explain that throughout history, economic-driven behavior and/or attitude like greed or war for resources have never changed despite constant cultural changes? How do we explain that economic-driven behavior is pretty much universal despite differences in cultural values?
Because it isn't?

Moreover look at Europe prior to WWI, it was thought that the nations of Europe could never go to war because they were so interconnected economically. In fact the connections between the nations was so tight that it would be insane to go to war, economically speaking.
Sorry, you're wrong. The seeds of WWI has been firmly planted by the rivalry of colonial expansion that started as early as 1880s'. There are reaons why the structural foundation of the war has been laid on Anglo-German tension, because German acquisitions in Africa and the Pacific threatened British strategic and commercial interests.
Actually this is a ridiculous view, there were talks of an alliance between Germany and Britain as late as the 1890s, but this stalled due to German insistance on formal declarations. Read Kenneth Masseys "Dreadnaught" among others.

The cause of World War One was fourfold:

1. The Franco-Prussian War of 1871, which guaranteed permanent French hostility to Germany. In fact the Germans encouraged French colonialism to distract them from revanchist thoughts in Alsace-Lorraine, but this didn't work. The reason it didn't work was that a lot of refugees from Alsace-Lorraine had settled in France proper, in Paris, and created a swing block of single issue voters; much like the exile Cubans in Florida.

2. The German alliance with Austria-Hungary. The A-H empire was ruled by Germans, but consisted of countless minorities, some of them slavic. Basically this alliance chained Germany to a corpse, and an erratic one at that.

3. Due to internal political pressure in Russia the idea of Pan-Slavism, a Slavic nationalism, became very popular. The idea was that all Slavs should be ruled by Russia, or at least be satelite states. A very cultural issue designed to distract people from the lack of reform elsewhere, but also to increase Russian power.

4. Kaiser Wilhelm was always insecure due to his crippled arm, and he always loved the navy. He created his own regatta in Germany, but nobody came. Then von Tirpitz showed up and claimed that if Germany had a proper navy everyone would have to sit up and notice... thus began the German naval buildup.

The adherance to the alliance with Austria-Hungary, and the end of Bismarcks policy of isolating France, led to a Franco-Russian alliance, which at the time was seen by many as being aimed as much against Britain as against Germany.

The German naval build-up and the Kaisers erratic behaviour, not German economic power or German colonies (do you seriously think that a sausage factory at Lake Taganyika was a threat to the British Empire?), pushed Britain into French arms.

Germany didn't see that one coming since the French and the Russians had far greater conflicts with Britain, and clashed in far more places; Russia threatened Central-Asia and from there India; the massive French colonial Empire could strike against Egypt and from there threaten access to India. So they viewed the idea of a British-French-Russian alliance as being absurd.
Kreshna Aryaguna Nurzaman wrote:
Norseman wrote:Today, even though many European nations and the USA could do so, and would benefit from securing the oil supplies, there isn't a single move towards such actions. It'd be culturally unacceptable.
Now it is culturaly unacceptable to economically exploit others through open warfare, but it is still acceptable to do the same exploitation through legal means like multinational corporations.
Aaaah! Moving the goal posts are we?

I would say that having it be culturally unacceptable to exploit people through open warfare is a pretty huge difference!

It gets even better when you consider that if some regime nationalized foreign assets in the old days, why then there'd be warships on their door! Mossadegh anyone?

Compare that to what is happening in Venezuela! IF he had tried that a hundred years ago the Royal Navy and the United States Marine Corps would be knocking on his door!

Once more a pretty big difference!
Kreshna Aryaguna Nurzaman wrote:
Norseman wrote:So you can see... peoples behaviour does change quite a bit with culture, even in areas where economy is very much at stake.
Of course, but people's behaviours when it goes to economic concerns fairly stays the same througout centuries.

See, this is actually where I disagree with your point, primarily because culture has always been changing througout history, while basic economic attitudes (or behavior) like greed never change.
Uhm no peoples behaviour, even when resources and desires remain constant, can and has changed remarkably based on culture.
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#18 Re: The Multi-Cultural Society and Its Enemies

Post by Norseman »

Kreshna Aryaguna Nurzaman wrote:
Norseman wrote:
Kreshna Aryaguna Nurzaman wrote:Reason why communism has universally failed despite the cultural values of the nation where it was applied; because communism completely ignores the fact that human is primarily driven by economic desires --that humans universally expect economic rewards from their works.
On the contrary when I criticized the view that people are primarily economic creatures I was criticizing the Communist view, because that is what Marx peddled. Communism doesn't ignore the fact that people are primarily driven by economic concerns, it exalts that idea into an ideology.
It ignores the fact that humans are driven by economic rewards despite whatever culture she/he adopt. Communist nations failed because they ignore the reward element --hence the long queue for bread: everyone has the money, but the workers are not really motivated to make breads because they will get paid whether they're working or not.
Actually there were economic rewards in Communist countries, the problem was twofold, first that sloppy work got paid as much as good work; second that most work was considered roughly equivalent, so that a good coal miner could earn as much as a surgeon.
Kreshna Aryaguna Nurzaman wrote:
Norseman wrote:However you are in fact wrong, take a look at East Germany and then at the USSR, the Germans were very hard workers and willing to keep the nose to the grindstone even under Communism. In the USSR this attitude was much weaker, people simply couldn't be bothered to work harder than they had to.
And yet the East Germans still had problems competing with their West German counterparts --especially during the start of unification-- despite the fact they're both Germans.
Well certainly they were poorer, less educated, and their culture had begun to change under Communism: it discouraged initiative and promoted collective thinking. Thus there is no surprise they were outcompeted at least initially.

Mind you I never claimed that economic pressures were irrelevant, but that cultural attitudes can often override economic pressures. In short culture is more important than economy when it comes to shaping most peoples behaviour.
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#19

Post by frigidmagi »

And you simply attribute it to cultural differences than the severity levels between those countries? For instance, at least poor people in developed countries can still get their basic needs, while the poor in Africa are starving to death.
So, how do you explain the differences between poor Euros, poor Americans and poor Japanese. The difference of severity isn't much. In fact compared to the difference between poor Africans and poor Americans, it doesn't exist. And yet there are miles upon milies in differences between the 3 groups in terms of behavior, political stances, world views, religions ect.

If your contention was correct then Poor Euros, Poor Amai's and Poor Japs should be more alike to each other then those who are over them economically. This simply isn't the case however.
And how do you explain the fact that one of the causes of WWI is economic rivalry?
The cause of WWI was an entangling web of political alliances that made no economic sense. There was no econmic sense in Russia's alliance with Serbia, France was Germany's biggest trading partner. England's economy demanded that sea lanes be kept open this would be better served via neutrality in WWI. To be blunt KAN, there was no economic sense in WWI. Krupp made shitloads of cash from their own nation losing the war!

Europe was economically intergrated to a point we wouldn't see again until the raise of the EU. Let me make this clear. EUROPE IN THE 1980S WAS LESS INTERGRATED ECONOMICALLY SPEAKING THEN EUROPE IN 1909!

Most economicist actually declared that the nature of economics made long wars between european powers on the continent impossible. Not unlikely, IMPOSSIBLE.

The only major nation in WWI to turn a profit was the US. Who entered the war on the side of England... The nation it happened to share the deepest cultural ties with, who was also it biggest economic rival worldwide.

Just in case you're interested.
And there's also fact that Indonesian suicide bombers came from poor, undereducated family --people who are desperate by their economic situation that they're more susceptible to brainwash.
Osama Bin Lauden was a millionarie, of the 911 hijackers they came from the upper middle class. The wealthy of Saudi soceity have engaged in terrorist acts along side with the poor. Economically speaking it makes no sense for people to attack the source of their wealth. Bin Lauden's family is wealthy due to trade with the West.

Hell, Mohammad Atta was an architect with an education from Germany. Upon study of who preforms these acts it becomes clear that economics is not the deciding factor here. All of these men do share cultural values, Wahhabism for example, kinship ties with the Middle East or other area with high levels of regilious exetremism (Afghanistan, Pakistan, etc).

Niether does economics explain the "Jonny Talibans" of the west. The members of western culture who convert to violent dark strains of exetremism. They tend to be from wealthy families, so why do they embrace this? It goes against their economic interests.

Correct me if I'm wrong but didn't you say there were a growing number of fundalmentist in your university? May I ask who goes to college in your soceity, just to be sure?
No. See above. My comparison is based on the condition that the women wear burka out of their consent.


I have proven that an there is indeed an element of force involved however. You have not denied once that a women not wearing a burka may be subject to violent punishment even in Europe itself. Also headscarves are not burka's KAN, don't try to confuse the subject.

Also your comparsion with nuns is like comparing a marine's uniform with daily casual wear. It doesn't work because one is a uniform marking a person who preforms a function and bears a title the other is something everyone is suppose to be wearing regardless of title and social function. Basically they have nothing in common.

Understand my objection to the comparsion is that it fails on the basic level of comparing the uniform of a religous office with that of a normal person. It would be like me comparing a Iman's religious outfit to the clothes wore by Soreity girls going bar hopping. It simply does not work. If you desire to chose a better comparsion I will by all means stop coming back to this point.
What is wrong if the woman was being forced and/or coerced to wear burka,
I think you pharsed this wrong could you please rewrite? Seriously the entire sentence is to long and contains to many thoughts at once for me to follow, I'm sorry about that but I must request you try again in your next post please.
I believe it's too far-fetched to decide whether multiculturalism has succeed or failed. And I surely don't believe that it works just like an "on-off button"; just like any other ideologies out there, it has its own strength and weakness, as well as successes and failures. Canada and Malaysia are examples where multiculturalism has been relatively smooth, for example.
Multiculturalism has been going on for generations in Europe, I believe we have given it long enough. The results have been riots in France, rapes increasing over fourfold in Sweden and gang violence in England and a rash of gang-rapes in Australia . I do not believe these problems are acceptable nor unavoidable. This has nothing to do with race or economics. This has everything to do with a failure to explain to immigratents what is and what is not acceptable. There comes a time when you must admit failure and try again. Communism failed, we all admit it.

And frankly KAN no one has claimed that Latin men steal because they're Latin. Not a single person in this thread has declared that a certain race or culture is doomed to commit crime. Our contention is the failure to communicate acceptable behavior, to intergrate immigrate communities has cause a disconnect which has led to behavior on both sides which is frankly unacceptable. Until it is admitted that it has failed this will continue.
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#20 Re: The Multi-Cultural Society and Its Enemies

Post by Kreshna Aryaguna Nurzaman »

Norseman wrote:The cause of World War One was fourfold:

1. The Franco-Prussian War of 1871, which guaranteed permanent French hostility to Germany. In fact the Germans encouraged French colonialism to distract them from revanchist thoughts in Alsace-Lorraine, but this didn't work. The reason it didn't work was that a lot of refugees from Alsace-Lorraine had settled in France proper, in Paris, and created a swing block of single issue voters; much like the exile Cubans in Florida.

2. The German alliance with Austria-Hungary. The A-H empire was ruled by Germans, but consisted of countless minorities, some of them slavic. Basically this alliance chained Germany to a corpse, and an erratic one at that.

3. Due to internal political pressure in Russia the idea of Pan-Slavism, a Slavic nationalism, became very popular. The idea was that all Slavs should be ruled by Russia, or at least be satelite states. A very cultural issue designed to distract people from the lack of reform elsewhere, but also to increase Russian power.

4. Kaiser Wilhelm was always insecure due to his crippled arm, and he always loved the navy. He created his own regatta in Germany, but nobody came. Then von Tirpitz showed up and claimed that if Germany had a proper navy everyone would have to sit up and notice... thus began the German naval buildup.

The adherance to the alliance with Austria-Hungary, and the end of Bismarcks policy of isolating France, led to a Franco-Russian alliance, which at the time was seen by many as being aimed as much against Britain as against Germany.
The fact that ideological/political causes existed does not eliminate the fact that there were also structural/systemic causes, which is competition in colonial expansion --especially the disputes over Africa between the Great Britain, the French Third Republic, and the newly emerging German Empire.


Norseman wrote:The German naval build-up and the Kaisers erratic behaviour, not German economic power or German colonies (do you seriously think that a sausage factory at Lake Taganyika was a threat to the British Empire?), pushed Britain into French arms.
Don't get ridiculous. Of course a single sausage factory was not a threat --it is the whole strategic rivalries over Africa that lied the underlying structural cause that eventually brought the Great War.


Norseman wrote:
Kreshna Aryaguna Nurzaman wrote:
Now it is culturaly unacceptable to economically exploit others through open warfare, but it is still acceptable to do the same exploitation through legal means like multinational corporations.
Aaaah! Moving the goal posts are we?

I would say that having it be culturally unacceptable to exploit people through open warfare is a pretty huge difference!

It gets even better when you consider that if some regime nationalized foreign assets in the old days, why then there'd be warships on their door! Mossadegh anyone?

Compare that to what is happening in Venezuela! IF he had tried that a hundred years ago the Royal Navy and the United States Marine Corps would be knocking on his door!

Once more a pretty big difference!
The 'pretty big difference' only exists because you fail to tell the difference between MOTIVES and METHODS, thank you very much.


Norseman wrote:Uhm no peoples behaviour, even when resources and desires remain constant, can and has changed remarkably based on culture.
Uhm no. The minutiae of human behavior change, but the underlying basics still stay the same. Now come again when you have actually witnessed cultural changes have successfully eliminate human greed, for instance.
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#21 Re: The Multi-Cultural Society and Its Enemies

Post by Norseman »

Kreshna Aryaguna Nurzaman wrote:The 'pretty big difference' only exists because you fail to tell the difference between MOTIVES and METHODS, thank you very much.
So let me just see if I get your argument...

If I see a pretty girl and I go "Wow I'd love to bang that one!" so I go over there and try to chat her up; versus me going "Wow I'd love to bang that one!" and clubbing her over the head, and dragging her home to keep her prisoner...

That's just minutiae?
Last edited by Norseman on Mon Mar 05, 2007 3:12 am, edited 1 time in total.
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#22 Re: The Multi-Cultural Society and Its Enemies

Post by Kreshna Aryaguna Nurzaman »

Norseman wrote:
Kreshna Aryaguna Nurzaman wrote:The 'pretty big difference' only exists because you fail to tell the difference between MOTIVES and METHODS, thank you very much.
So let me just see if I get your argument...

If I see a pretty girl and I go "Wow I'd love to bang that one!" so I go over there and try to chat her up; versus me going "Wow I'd love to bang that one!" and clubbing her over the head, and dragging her home to keep her prisoner...

That's just minutiae?
I love the way you twist my argument, you dishonest fuck. YOU KNOW we were arguing about whether conflict and/or frictions between NATIONS has been moslty driven by cultural differences or economic gains --whether it is open warfare or indirect, subtler manipulations doesn't really matter.
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#23

Post by frigidmagi »

KAN you have been implying he was a racist from your first post. It's damn hypocritcal of you to whine about agruement twisting now.
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#24 Re: The Multi-Cultural Society and Its Enemies

Post by Norseman »

Kreshna Aryaguna Nurzaman wrote:
Norseman wrote:
Kreshna Aryaguna Nurzaman wrote:The 'pretty big difference' only exists because you fail to tell the difference between MOTIVES and METHODS, thank you very much.
So let me just see if I get your argument...

If I see a pretty girl and I go "Wow I'd love to bang that one!" so I go over there and try to chat her up; versus me going "Wow I'd love to bang that one!" and clubbing her over the head, and dragging her home to keep her prisoner...

That's just minutiae?
I love the way you twist my argument, you dishonest fuck. YOU KNOW we were arguing about whether conflict and/or frictions between NATIONS has been moslty driven by cultural differences or economic gains --whether it is open warfare or indirect, subtler manipulations doesn't really matter.
No we were not arguing about that, we were arguing whether or not culture or economy was most important in how people behaved, the argument came to include national behaviour but was primarily about regular people.

I will take it then that you concede the point that individuals are primarily motivated by culture when dealing with other individuals.

However even on a grand scale the same still applies:

In 1955 West (America and Britain mainly) saw Iran (the pretty girl) and said "Damn I want that oil" ("Ooo I'd like to tap that") but Iran nationalized foreign oil (slapped you in the face) and the West helped overthrow Mossadegh and install a dictator (slapped the girl around). Now personally I think this is one of the most shameful incidents in recent western history...

In 2007 the West sees Venezuela, says "Damn I want that oil," but Chavez is nationalizing the industries... now overthrowing him and installing a friendly dictator would be almost as easy as overthrowing Mossadegh, and yet they don't do that...

Sure nations are generally a bit rougher in their intercourse than people are, and nations are generally more motivated by economic and political concerns, but a democracy can't free itself of the culture of the voters.
Kreshna Aryaguna Nurzaman
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#25

Post by Kreshna Aryaguna Nurzaman »

frigidmagi wrote:So, how do you explain the differences between poor Euros, poor Americans and poor Japanese. The difference of severity isn't much. In fact compared to the difference between poor Africans and poor Americans, it doesn't exist.
Um, frigid? There's no one starving to death in United States as far as I know.


frigidmagi wrote:And yet there are miles upon milies in differences between the 3 groups in terms of behavior, political stances, world views, religions ect.
How do we explain the looting happened during the aftermath of Katrina? And how do we compare that to the looting happened in Indonesia during the start of monetary (and economic crisis) in mid-1990s? They both have different cultural values, but still, when pressed by severe economic needs (really severe to the point of survival), cultural differences doesn't really matter anymore.

I'm not saying that looting is right; I merely pointed that such thing happen in two different countries with different values.

And also remember that muggers do exist in almost every slums around the world --regardless what country and cultural values they have. There are muggers in Bronx, there are muggers in Tanah Abang (a relatively slummy area in Jakarta). They are all socio-economic problems, not cultural problems.

How do you explain cultural differences between muggers in New York and Jakarta? The only cultural differences are their music and language, but the motivation stays the same: money.

It doesn't matter whether the muggers or slum gangs are Mexicans, African-Americans, Arabs, or Asians. They're social and economic problems, not cultural.


frigidmagi wrote:Most economicist actually declared that the nature of economics made long wars between european powers on the continent impossible. Not unlikely, IMPOSSIBLE.
The fact that the war itself made no economic sense doesn't remove the fact that tensions between European powers during the early 19th century have always caused by economic rivalry. German tried to catch up with other, more established (in terms of colonization) European powers during that time. It was economic reason that cause all the tensions and competitions between European powers at that time.


The liberal champions of free trade did not view their cause solely or even primarily as a commercial matter.[/quote]

The article only says that the champions claim that their cause was not solely about commercial matter.

But take a look at everyday's practice, take a look at things like Nike sweatshops in Chinese, for example. Whether we like it or not, it is still about economic gain. The company gets more profit by lowering the cost, while the Chinese government get more income by taxing those companies.

I'm not saying that economic gain must always be a bad thing; nope. I merely pointed that it is still our primary drive, and it still the root causes of many social problems. Take a look at my explanation above. The people living in slums do not sell cokes because of cultural values of their ethnic group, but simply because of MONEY.


frigidmagi wrote:Osama Bin Lauden was a millionarie, of the 911 hijackers they came from the upper middle class. The wealthy of Saudi soceity have engaged in terrorist acts along side with the poor. Economically speaking it makes no sense for people to attack the source of their wealth. Bin Lauden's family is wealthy due to trade with the West.

Hell, Mohammad Atta was an architect with an education from Germany. Upon study of who preforms these acts it becomes clear that economics is not the deciding factor here. All of these men do share cultural values, Wahhabism for example, kinship ties with the Middle East or other area with high levels of regilious exetremism (Afghanistan, Pakistan, etc).
Now I DO agree with you that these nutcases need to get their heads examined (or a firing squad), but I still find it hard to believe that an immigrant committing robbery share the same motives with such nutcases.


frigidmagi wrote:Correct me if I'm wrong but didn't you say there were a growing number of fundalmentist in your university? May I ask who goes to college in your soceity, just to be sure?
Yes, but fundamentalist's recruiting does not only happen in university; in fact, FPI, the most fanatic fundie movement here, mainly consist of desperate unemployed people --who got brainwashed by fundie cells. Their desperation makes it easy for the fundies to fuck their head with "heavenly promises".

frigidmagi wrote:I have proven that an there is indeed an element of force involved however. You have not denied once that a women not wearing a burka may be subject to violent punishment even in Europe itself. Also headscarves are not burka's KAN, don't try to confuse the subject.
My point is that I have no objections with women wearing whatever they want to wear, as long as they do it by their own consent.

I do object against women being forced to wear burka, but I do not object to women wearing burka if it is based on her free will. I don't care whether it is fashion, uniform, or even "religious outfit" as long as they're not being forced to wear such thing. It's that simple.


frigidmagi wrote:This has everything to do with a failure to explain to immigratents what is and what is not acceptable. There comes a time when you must admit failure and try again. Communism failed, we all admit it.
Yes, but in countries in Malaysia, it is not an utter failure. Heck, even in Indonesia, it has succeed for a brief time --before this country turned into an economic hellhole by the corruption's of Suharto's regime.

That's being said, I don't believe that multiculturalism is the 'ultimate solution'. My views on this thing is actually moderate. There are cases when it fails, there are cases when it succeeds. If it has proven fails in Europe, then it fails. After all, it's only an ideology.

What I strongly disagree with the OP is actually not whether multiculturalism is successful or not.
frigidmagi wrote:And frankly KAN no one has claimed that Latin men steal because they're Latin. Not a single person in this thread has declared that a certain race or culture is doomed to commit crime.
Indeed nobody has blatanly claimed that Escobar became a druglord because of "Latin culture", but the OP indeed connects criminal behavior with the culture of a certain enthic group (or groups) while denying economic reasons.
The reason is that Multi-Culturalism is inherently flawed, it literally cannot work. The Multi-Culturalists cannot accept this, because it goes against their dislike of nationalism, and their belief that human behaviour is primarily dictated by economic concern.

The reaction people have when they see that something is wrong depends on Culture, and on the political system of the nation involved.
and:
They hear about people who are beaten up and robbed, they have to lock their doors, they are afraid to walk in their own towns.
First, I don't believe that crime is a cultural thing: it is more a social and economic problems that needs to be solved. Second, this can be offensive --linking criminal behavior with cultural values of certain ethnic groups, instead of other factors like low education or poverty.

Imagine if we said that the criminal behavior of Mexican immigrants is due to their culture instead of other social problems like poverty and low education --see what I mean?
Last edited by Kreshna Aryaguna Nurzaman on Mon Mar 05, 2007 5:13 am, edited 2 times in total.
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